BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

ugh.

"...and the supervisor became brusque."

can you elaborate on this?

The supervisor was totally polite and professional when I described the bus part of the incident. I then explained that I'd specifically asked to be escalated to him, and described the previous conversation. He said that he'd make sure that port authority got my report. I said that's fine, but please also remind your operators that reports from bicyclists should be taken seriously. He said something like "Is there anything else?" I'm afraid I don't remember his actual words. It was clear from his tone that he was refusing to acknowledge that there was anything wrong on the 911 end, and that he didn't plan to do anything about it.

is there anyway we can get the recording of the 911 call. I know the news agencies do it all the time.

Since this has come up repeatedly, and repeatedly nothing has changed, there must be another approach.

One thing that comes to mind, perhaps start a conversation with Lynn Heckman at Active Allegheny, an initiative of the COUNTY to promote active transportation. They have spent some significant amount of money to study ways to improve infrastructure, and county bus drivers are actively torpedoing their efforts. Something needs to be done from inside.

And perhaps the conversation with her needs to start very directly, "county bus drivers can be overtly hostile and threatening to cyclists, this happens repeatedly, management takes no action, infrastructure improvements are money down the toilet as long as this continues, god forbid someone is going to get killed, what can you do about this?".

http://www.activeallegheny.com/

You have a bus number. A specific time of day and a street or intersection would be all that Port Authority would need to identify the driver.

Can you be a little more specific about "creamed"? Passing distance? Running a light?

I'm actually more infuriated by the 911 response than by the actions of the bus driver, although the bus was bad enough to make me call 911 in the first place.

I was going north on the 16th St bridge. For those not familiar with the bridge, it's nice - four lanes total, two in each direction. I was in the right hand lane. There was no traffic in front of me in either lane. I heard the bus coming up behind me, but I wasn't worried, because there's so much room. The bus was passing me on the left, and suddenly swerved into my lane. I had to slam on the brakes to avoid being squished between the bus and the guard rails (which are a solid, multiple rail design that come up pretty high; no chance of getting over the rail).

i got hit pretty hard at the end of that bridge once... lost my favorite bicycle

911 is also a county service.

"What did you expect" is an abhorrant answer, deserving of at least a minimum reprimand and apology. It is akin to telling an old person the same thing for a heart attack, or a woman the same thing for sexual harassment. If it were the former she'd be fired. If it were the latter she'd attend sensitivity training. Her supervisor's response indicates that he needs to be corrected as well.

They are not hired for their judgement capabilities. They are hired to respond to emergencies, and non emergent police, fire, and paramedic calls. Since PAT has it's own police, this includes them.

There has to be a way to file a formal complaint, you attempted to go to the supervisor, now it's time to push it higher.

Now that they rerouted the 56U to a 58.. I share my commute on Panther Hollow with the jagoff(s) that drive the 58. There is at least one driver that does that to me about once every other week. Pass without changing lanes, pull over when they are (or aren't) barely in front of you. I think its a game or something. Smush the biker? Total bs they can't completely change lanes to pass a bike on a 4-lane road. At least there aren't any stops on Panther Hollow, so I don't have to wait behind the damn thing. I don't even bother sending my bitching and moaning to the black hole known as the PAT complaint line. I'm afraid of what I'll say to this guy when it gets snowy and icy and I actually want to take the bus into work.

How often do they have to retest to keep their bus endorsement on the license?

This reminds me of this: (which I just googled, looking for helpdesk comics)

What you have to remember is that these people take calls all day and deal with upset, distraught people all day. They're not robots, they're human.

Occasionally their personal opinions get out. Maybe the last five calls he took were people getting beat up by abusive partners? And if somebody responds with "they get paid to due x, y, z" it still doesn't change the fact that they're human.

Not saying it was proper behavior, but it happens.

Working in a semi-helpdesk environment, my opinion is biased, but I think I have a greater perspective about the experience on the other end of the phone

If we can get some of those 911 operators to join us for a few group rides, I think we'd get better handling of problems reported by cyclists.

Like dooftram and his student, and earlier stefb and her co-worker in the O.R. -- really, the more that ANY non-cyclists see us as real people -- the more we cyclists will be accepted by them.

my husband works in IT, dealing both with malfuncitoning computers AND malfunctioning humans _at the same time_, he's got the disposition for it and is excellent at it. I would last about one service call in - but I never have, and never will, seek employment in that field. If she's not suited for the field, she should be encouraged to find a better field for her skills. Responding to ANY 911 caller with "what did you expect" at ANY time indicates a serious problem, either with that employee or the way they are handling their call loads. This is 911 - I apologize if I hold them to a high standard, but many lives depend on it. Not in this situation, but that's no reason to relax basic service standards. Especially given the "you" in the sentence DID just have a life threatening situation.

There's human, and there's behavior in need of recallibrating, especially given the supervisor's lack of response. I'd cut them slack when I heard an apology, not one second earlier. But it didn't happen to me.

"If she's not suited for the field, she should be encouraged to find a better field for her skills."

Basing a person's ability to preform their job based on three words doesn't seem like a very large pool from which to evaluate their performance.

Nobody's lives were at risk during the conversation mentioned.

Rather than just demanding a forced and insincere apology, why not try and determine what the person was actually trying to communicate? "Well what did you expect?" Perhaps the person felt that cycling on the road was dangerous? Maybe the operator felt bicycles did not belong on the road?

Maybe if you communicated how that comment made you feel, they would be more forthcoming in a natural apology based in empathy and not the standard kiss-ass based approach to customer service.

I very much agree with Edmonds about internally in the County exerting some pressure. Unfortunately I have a lot of experience working in the County and know that just because the County decided to pour money into ActiveAllegheny doesn't mean that the PAT, or 911 or any other County agencey is making it their mission too. It's a goal to work towards though, certainly.

Walking through the hood is dangerous too. If I call 911 after a bunch of people threw bottles at me or worse, and someone asked me "wait, you were walking through the hood? well, what did you expect?" I'd be just as pissed. Nobody would think to say that.

These people are public service employees. What if a military service person was shot at in Iraq and a politician (another public servant) told him/her "well, it is war, what did you expect?" They wouldn't be elected dog catcher after that little sound-byte. Difference is all these other groups are a respected contingent of society, and cyclists for the large part, aren't.

@Pierce: I *did* try to communicate this to the person. I was so stunned that the first thing I said was something along the lines of "Really? Are you serious?" Then I said that I didn't think that was an appropriate response, and that I felt like he wasn't giving my complaint serious attention. He reiterated that he didn't think that it was reasonable for me to file a complaint at all, because I was on a bicycle. As far as no one's life being in danger at the time of the consversation, that's very true, and I said up front that this was not an emergency. I was calling, however, because I *did* feel that my life was in danger.

At no point was I demanding an apology, and I'm not asking for one now. All I ever expected was 911 to log my complaint and pass it along to port authority. Along with that, I asked the 911 supervisor to remind the operators of their obligation to receive and pass along these reports.

In other threads on this forum, we talk about what we can do to improve the cycling experience for everyone overall. That's what motivated my original call. I escaped the incident unharmed, and no one besides me was in danger. I'm assuming that the driver did not act maliciously, and did not intentionally put me at risk. I'm further assuming that if no one tells the driver that I was at risk, then the driver will never know, and as a result the driver will repeat this behavior. That could result in a very negative experience for another cyclist - perhaps a newbie who would be turned off cycling in general. It could result in an injury or a fatality. I figured it was worth a minute or so of my time to report this. Frankly, my expectation is a 75% chance that port authority ignores the complaint altogether, and maybe a 25% chance that the supervisor lets the driver know that there was a complaint. I'm hoping for that 25%. Similarly, I could have just given up on reporting the problem when I ran into trouble, but then maybe the next time a cyclist has a problem that cyclist is also blown off by 911, with similar negative consequences.

None of this is the end of the world, but nothing ever just improves on its own. IMO, it's important to call out kudos and job well done when it's due, and it's important to call out areas for improvement.

I agree. My comments were addressed more towards ejwme's response than to your own.

For whatever it's worth, my call to 911 after having been actually hit by a bus was about the same, without the snarky comment from the operator.

I just don't think there is much an operator can do. They take the information, file it in a report, it probably goes to the PAT complaint hole, case closed.

edited - written after JZ's post. I guess I'm more peeved about this than he is, with absolutely no justification I guess.... Yeah, still peeved. Still gonna say what I had to say. Skip it if you like, I won't take offence.

what dwillen said. sorry pierce, I'll agree to disagree with you on this one. Context means all the difference to the sentence as uttered. Ranting to friends after work is one thing, this is on the job, during a call. It's not just service, it's indicative that this woman, and her supervisor, believe that cyclists deserve any ill fortune they have coming to them, and perhaps will act with less haste during calls that ARE life threatening because, Well, What Did You Expect?

I expect prompt, polite, and curteous service without judgement. I'm not expecting miracles, psychic divination, or an ability to change the time-space continuum. Maybe if JZ had started cursing and screaming at the operator, I'd be a little less inclined to damn her (and her supervisor's) words.

Perhaps that's my error here, I'm assuming JZ, while upset and shaken, was some version of polite, if not composed. Perhaps my error is that when a cyclist such as JZ is on a City Sanctioned On-Street Bicycle Route (see Bike-pgh map, and previous thread where erok stated the city had adopted the map for planning purposes), he should have EVERY expectation to be treated with respect as a road user. Or perhaps my error is in assuming that when his life is threatened with a 20 ton vehicle for no reason whatsoever on aforementioned sanctioned bike route, that he be treated with respect when reporting that to the appropriate authorities.

Sorry, I refuse to lower my expectations because some adults disagree with the validity of a particular mode of transportation or the people who participate in it (for some, it's not a choice).

I dislike it when people act that way in general conversation, but I don't argue with them or try too hard to shange their minds, let alone call for some form of official sanctioning, that would be absurd. But when that person's discriminatory opinion is voiced while they are performing their duty as a county employed emergency dispatcher, I take it seriously. When their behavior is BACKED by their supervisor, rather than reprimanded or apologized for, that is serious.

It is the same as saying the same sentence to a female after an escape from a near sexual assault, or to an elderly person who has just had a bout of chest pains and is scared of another heart attack.

Even if you *did* have the contact number of PAT services on-hand, they aren't much help either. I had one incredibly dangerous situation once which is probably for another thread. When I finally escaped/was forced onto the curb into a large group of people, he told me to "get off the road you f__king" something-or-other and closed the door and drove off. When I reported the incident I gave the street, the block, even the building it was in front of, the date/time of day, and a pretty good physical description of the driver (I don't remember if I got the bus number, but probably not since I couldn't look up because I had to pay attention to the road), but PAT told me they couldn't do anything unless I had the bus number AND the driver's name. The operator refused to even make note that an incident occurred.

I don't know if 911 might at least have your call on file as a police incident as well, so it might actually have a chance of being noticed at some point at least in the event that that driver/PAT buses in general are called into question about another or a series of events, which might be *some* consolation for your bad situation.

@JZ I asked if he would remind his staff that reports from bicyclists are real reports, and just got silence.

Sound like that would be a good time to confirm that you have the correct spelling of his name.

JZ, I have had two PAT bus drivers perform this maneuver on me in the past.

It's like they either don't know just how big their bus is, or they are actually trying to scare you. If you have the bus number and time of a day I would report it to PAT. It may be the same driver.

@rsprake, I too have had this maneuver pulled on me twice in the last year. I don't believe PAT's complaint process operates in good faith. Maybe we need to start making complaints in person, perhaps in a group.

Has anyone not had a PAT driver cut a pass short in front of them? Would it be worthwhile to CC your complaints to your elected officials? City council people or otherwise? Does anyone but PAT have a say in PAT operations? The oversight here is somewhat lacking it seems.

the city doesn't have any say in PAT. the county might though.

rsprake

have you ever seen these drivers squeeze their bus thru parked cars. they know how big their busses are.

I had my messenger bag "brushed" by a guy who was looking down at his cell phone (I noticed this as he passed me) on Penn Ave., Point Breeze. I noted the color and style of car (silver 4-door) and license plate number,stopped at the next intersection and called 911. Officer responded 25 mins. later, and I explained what happened. He looked at me and said: "Why don't you ride your bike on trails?"

"Why don't you drive your car only on the highways? The answer, of course, is because the highways don't take you everywhere you want to go. It's the same for bicycles. There are no trails in the East End or Point Breeze and so, just like you in your automobile, I must utilize local roads to get where I'm going. And, since the law says that I have equal right to be there as any automobile I think it is reasonable to receive equal treatment for traffic incidents from local authorities."

And remember not to actually mutter "moron" under your breath at the end of that statement.

@pghbikeguy (and others), I wonder if it would be helpful for the mayor and bike-friendly city council people to know what kind or reception local cyclists are getting from 911 calls? Clearly more training is in order. (esp for people who've been at these jobs for some years).

There is a disconnect between what these agencies and departments project, and how they operate. I watched the post agenda that Bricker was at, and everyone was amiable to cycling within the city and county. The Commander who was present at the post agenda wants you to call in any and all collisions, accidents, harassing motorists, etc. However, 911 and the responders have no proper bureaucratic way to handle calls from cyclists.

It's like having philips, flat-heads and allen keys all your life and then encountering those damn torx fasteners: Double U, Tee, Eff.

Just keep plugging away at it and eventually you'll get an operator that rides an old Raleigh to the call center on Lexington, in the rain, just because they like the sound the rainwater makes when it splashes against their hammered, metal fenders.

@Kordite, it's not just "the law" that says you have equal right to the roads. The right to free passage through the public way is a fundamental civil right. And according to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, human rights are "inalienable". Which means they are not in fact granted by the law, but are only enumerated there for reference's sake. According to this theory, these rights are granted us by "our creator". So, basically, according to the US Constitution, we actually do have a god-given right to the road.

@Kordite: That is exactly what I responded (the "trails don't go where I want to go part," at least). In the end, I was supremely offended that this officer could pull up the license number on his computer, confirm that it was a silver 4-door car, but because I couldn't tell him the exact model (at the time I remembered the make, I believe a Honda), he said he could not do anything. I guess someone has to die or lose a limb in order for the cops to do anything.

I'm sure this guy was not representative of all city police officers, but it is depressing that I wasted my time calling in, just to be told to "ride on trails."

And I am never tempted to mutter "moron" under my breath. "@sshole" maybe, but certainly never "moron."

@pghbikeguy: Because you couldn't id the model there's nothing he can do? That's not true. I know for a fact that they can take action based on a description and a partial plate, he simply chose not to and fed you a line.

@Lyle: God didn't give me those rights. The Declaration didn't give me those rights. My rights are in the Constitution (in general) and the law (specifically). We only have the rights that others are willing to let us have. It's social contract stuff. Thomas Hobbes' "Leviathan", not divine right.

That's why have to fight so hard for our rights.