BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

http://www.wtae.com/news/local/allegheny/Bicyclist-survives-twice-being-hit-on-Penn-Avenue/-/10927008/15949538/-/g2aw0/-/index.html

http://www.wtae.com/news/local/allegheny/Bicyclist-survives-twice-being-hit-on-Penn-Avenue/-/10927008/15949538/-/g2aw0/-/index.html

http://www.wtae.com/news/local/allegheny/Bicyclist-survives-twice-being-hit-on-Penn-Avenue/-/10927008/15949538/-/g2aw0/-/index.html

WTAE link

Im starting to find it hard to believe that we aren't being targeted.

Edit-spelling

I just spoke face to face with another cyclist who said he's been yelled at three days in a row. Yeah, something's in the air, water, whatever.

I'm still wondering about my Perry Hwy brush, now three weeks ago. It's possible it was accidental, but sheese, it was broad daylight and the road was empty.

Well, I myself got buzzed by a PAT bus within about 2 or 3 feet or so on Forbes Avenue in Uptown last Saturday. There was virtually no other traffic that day and I was taking the lane. Seriously, these drivers can't be bothered to switch lanes.

I gave the bus a few "friendly knocks" on the side paneling as it went passed, further illustrating how close he came to me. And no, i did no actually damage to the bus.

People really need to wake up and realize that "we cyclists" aren't going anywhere. Adapt or stay of the road.

Apparently, it's not just Pittsburgh...

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2012/aug/03/tdmain01-suspect-admits-driving-vehicle-that-fatal-ar-2105066/

I swear it is always some dumb SUV or Pickup. Sure are a lot of selfish idiots on the road.

I know how ya feel Impala. I was on Forbes in sq. Hill today heading into the park, I took the whole lane to avoid getting doored or slamming into a parked car. The bus driver was on my wheel blasting his horn.

I could finally move to the right and the bus flew by me doing about 60, swerved to right lane to pass someone in left, then swerved into left to pass someone else in the right lane.

The wildest thing was that it was a 2 stage bus

(With one of those bend in the middle extensions.)

I wish I had gotten thier number, I would have reported the hell out of that (explative deleted.)

@stu: keep in mind that most automobile "accidents" (involving other automobiles, pedestrians, bicycles, motorcycles, and whatever else) happen during proper daylight and good weather. and:

@hcurtis: never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. it occurred to me years ago that most of the people who brushed me closely were driving either pickups or SUVs. there are two possibilities: a) people who drive pickups or SUVs are giant jerks who just like messing with bicyclists, or 2) people who drive pickups and SUVs just suck at telling where their vehicle begins and ends.

it's really easy to believe that it's former, but the way more likely scenario is that it's the latter. people drive automobiles that are too big for them to operate, and they just don't know that they're buzzing you close because they don't realize their giant honker goes that far to their right.

I agree that there are a lot of people who have no business driving their huge cars. I can't tell you how many times I see morons trying to park their giant vehicles in the parking garage at work and failing over and over again.

@HiddenVariable:

You know, it's been my experience that people who drive SUVs and don't have an actual reason for it (e.g., they aren't towing a trailer, don't have a large family to haul around, and don't live on top of a mountain that gets many feet of snow every winter,) tend to do so because they are incompetent or inattentive drivers, and they want as much metal between them and everyone else for their own protection from the inevitable 'accidents' (which, from their perspective, seem to 'just happen' when they're driving.) No, this isn't every driver, but when I actually talk to them and ask, I've heard this story on more than one occasion. Keith Bradsher's book, HIGH AND MIGHTY, is a good examination of this tendency and also filled with explanations as to why SUVs are often more dangers for their DRIVERS (although the book a bit old now.)

I haven't noticed this phenomenon as much with pickup trucks. I guess most people buy those because they actually NEED them.

@pbeaver you can still report the driver id you call PAT. They'll be able to figure or who it was based on the time and location.

Man you guys, nobody's yelled at me in like a year. Even then it was kind of a lame "mblmblmbl..." Is it me? Am I just not attractive?

Problem is, even if someone yells at me, I am slow to anger, slow to react, a bit slow witted. When I am riding, I am kind of in a zone, focusing, almost a meditation, the farthest thing from yelling. I had a good friend that I used to ride with who could explode into a downpour of epithets and soul burning commentary at the drop of a pin. Damn I admired that. With the course of events this week, woe be to the unfortunate driver who may decide to have a comment.

Not sure why I don't get yelled at, but this is me with my happy face on:



"C'mon car bitches, yell at me. Bring it."

Pedestrian hit on Carson early this morning. Not just cyclists at risk.

Earlier this week I traded my sonic orange jacket for a hi viz yellow Jersey for my commute in. in Bellevue, a car inline waiting for a light kept trying to s queeze me right, into parked cars. I started saying 'hello? Hello? Hello?' The way my parrots do when they think I am not paying attention to them. Finally the passenger turned around and said 'we can see your damn shirt...' My first thought was yes, success! On the visibilty quest. By the time I thought to ask well, then why are you squeezing me out of my lane, traffic was flowing again, and the opportunity was gone. Other than that, rides were good. But, I took a few days off after Mr green's accident. I'll be on the bike again this weekend

@Swalfoort: Good idea. These 3m vests are highly visible, have reflective tape for night riding, and are inexpensive at Home Depot:

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Safety-Security-Personal-Job-Site-Safety/Tools-Hardware-Safety-Security-Personal-Safety-Apparel/3M-Tekk-Protection/Yellows-Golds/h_d1/R-202080177/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&productId=202080177&storeId=10051#.UB0uRU1lRRE

http://www.wtae.com/news/local/allegheny/Bicyclist-survives-twice-being-hit-on-Penn-Avenue/-/10927008/15949538/-/g2aw0/-/index.html

this is the story

http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=safety+Vest

I wear a safety vest quite often. FWIW I prefer the ones that are open on the side and made of mesh. They breath a little better. I got mine at lowes for about ten bucks, or cheaper if you buy a bunch

http://www.orange-traffic-cones.com/safetyvests/VESTLIMEREFLECTIVEE.html

Edit: Embrace your dorkieness!

I bought some here -- http://www.shannonsafety.com/store/categorylist.cfm?catID=7F5147454F117E (they are located on Bridgeville).

BTW someone wanted a convex mirror for jail trail and 2nd -- http://www.shannonsafety.com/store/product.cfm?pID=7C5042474E157D54

http://www.shannonsafety.com/store/productlist.cfm?catID=7E5141454D11 -- signs (Slow, etc)/

http://www.shannonsafety.com/store/productlist.cfm?catID=7E5141454D11 -- radar screen

the reflective clothes are all well and good, but they can see us! if we have to spend extra money to wear traffic cone jackets just so somebody won't murder us with our automobile, something is wrong. i know people can see me when i'm riding because i have enough people either hollering lewd comments at me (some people still don't realize that women have been riding bikes for as long as bikes have existed) or i'm loudly being told that i only belong on a trail somewhere. with all that yelling and attention, i still get buzzed by buses and cut off by people speeding through red lights. the way we look isn't the problem. the superiority complex of the drivers (and their severely lacking fear of police enforcement) is the problem.

it occurred to me the other day that while we've all been crossing our fingers that the police will finally start to help now that one of their own has been hit by an suv on penn, it's foolish to think this. the police can't even get proper support from their own unions when they're injured on the job. they're not going to go out of their way to protect those of us on bicycles just because it's what needs to be done.

i know this is off topic, but there's so many related threads happening on the board right now, i have this question to anybody that might be able to give me a clue. why aren't the police just going nuts with traffic and speeding tickets/arrests? goodness knows they need the money (the public bus funding cuts seem to be funding/benefiting nobody, not even in imagination land), so why aren't they having a field day with speeders during commute times? every day on the news i see reports of hit and runs, and people driving into buildings (this is preposterous that anybody can handle hearing this. driving into a house? that's too insane to even comprehend!) but i have yet to hear a news report about massive traffic enforcement.

i know this is way too wordy but i just got out of work and at the end of my shift i saw a pedestrian get hit by a car (i work at a bar on butler street, this was saturday night) and i've spent all morning puzzling over why the hell our police are not able to do the job they need to do. this is my burning question. why are the police not doing what they need to be doing now? why are they not receiving the proper orders, or funding, or whatever to do what needs to be done to solve the automobile related murder epidemic?

the reflective clothes are all well and good, but they can see us! if we have to spend extra money to wear traffic cone jackets just so somebody won't murder us with our automobile, something is wrong.

parvipica, I understand and agree with/share your frustration.

However, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with taking advisable steps to ensure your own safety. Sometimes you need to visually jolt people so that they register that you are there, and not just some scenery that you're passing.

I noticed it myself a few years ago, before I started biking. I had just moved to a place within the city (previously had spent most of my time living in suburbs or rural areas.) It was twilight, most of the cars had lights on, and I was coming home after a long day at work. I was on 5th avenue, and there was a cyclist ahead in my lane. He did not have any lights on. My eyes registered that there was something there, but it was almost like the message didn't get conveyed to the brain until I was close to the cyclist. It was almost like my mind decided: "It's just regular background stuff. Ignore it."

I woke up out of this 'stupor' in time to avoid an accident (which would've been my fault, of course.) It also 'woke me up' to paying more attention for bicyclists while driving in Pittsburgh. but ever since then, when I've been biking in traffic, my approach has always been: I assume that I'm going to be sharing the road with a lot of drivers that were in the same frame of mind that I was in that day, and I do what I can to make sure that *I* would be jolted out of my stupor on that day and see me.

Regarding law enforcement: as the saying goes, when seconds counts, the police are minutes away. It would be great if they launched a crackdown on traffic violatons along Penn and other areas where accidents have occurred (and not just speeding, but things like running red lights, turning or lane-changes without signalling, etc.) But as a rule, you can't count on this happening.

I think philosophically we as cyclists need to recognize that there is always danger when we go into traffic, and take steps to protect ourselves from that danger as best as we can.

I think that we as a community need to do what we can to educate the driving public. Sure, you aren't necessarily going to reach the "jagoffs," but you might reach the 'ordinary decent driver' who pays insufficient attention.

Just a thought....In another thread, the point was made that that it would be great if someone would start putting up PSA-type advertisements on buses or billboards.

Well...wouldn't it be even better if we would raise the money and do it ourselves? I mean, we're the ones who are affected here.

(Sorry for the soliliquy -- parvipica got me on a roll thinking about things!)

building on what you guys said about reflective stuff and being seen... Does anybody remember when daytime running lights were new? Maybe the transition here is harder to discern, but in Canada it was stark. WOW those first new cars were really easy to see, they stood out like crazy.

But when every car started to have daytime running lights, each car became less noticeable, since it was like all the others. Now I can only hope for a time when cyclists swarming the streets in reflective gear is blase, but it illustrates the idea that we can get used to (and tune out) almost anything.

It also bugs me, though I reflective-up when I ride, that cars may become so conditioned to seeing hazard reflective orange that a street clothing clad cyclist becomes invisible by comparison. I'm not talking a ninja, just a regular Joe.

Parvipica, re: traffic violations - i believe a budgetary decision was made in the 90s to restrict it to egregious violations, 911 reports, and "stings" (like school zone 'reminders' the first week of September, or Penn ave recently). Keep in mind that every citation is a decent amount of paperwork - if it's not fought in court. I also believe, though I forgot to confirm it today, that they're not paid to attend traffic court. So they could cite you, give themselves paperwork, not be able to show up in court, and you'd pay the $40 court fee and that's it.

I think that there's a better way of doing all of that, but i believe that's how we 'got here from there'.

the way we look isn't the problem. the superiority complex of the drivers (and their severely lacking fear of police enforcement) is the problem.

It's not the same problem in every collision. Sometimes it's the driver's attitude, sometimes it's visibility, sometimes mechanical failure, road design, daylight saving time changes, alcohol, bad weather, ... or a combination of these. Sometimes extra visibility is enough to make the difference between a collision and a near collision.

Re: police not paid for traffic court, I'd always heard just the opposite: that they received overtime for it. I'd like to know which is right.

Steven - it may need to be approved overtime, which never gets approved. I've worked a few jobs like that (none of them being police). I know they get paid to go to criminal court, maybe that's the OT.

The consensus here seems to accept the generalization that all SUV/Truck drivers are out to run down cyclists. Ok. Just think about that dynamic when the conversation turns to how drivers view cyclists as a group. Don't you think drivers will jump to gross generalizations as well? Don't you think they'll just assume that every time they see a filters-up-the-center-line, runs-through-the-red-light cyclist, that ALL cyclists are the same, and do the same things?

I'm not defending aggressive and dangerous driving (but a disclaimer here: I do drive a truck). I'm just saying we need to keep in mind that if we want to be seen as individuals and not lumped in with riders who may ride differently than us, we can't paint all drivers with the broad brush either.

Dammit, I knew ALMKLM was a menace to society!

He drives a truck...of course he's a menace.

Another truck/suv driver here. We aren't all out to kill cyclists.

Agree 100% ALMKLM.

That's all well and good except for the fact the design of trucks and SUVs is much more dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists (and people in smaller cars). So even if SUV/truck drivers are no less competent or more aggressive than car drivers, they are still more dangerous.

I disagree about the SUVs. I think if you want to play the numbers, most people who buy SUVs do it not because they actually need the towing capacity or off-road capability, or because they have a larger number of people to haul around, but because of the perceived 'safety' of the larger vehicle. (The perception of which is almost entirely a myth -- see Keith Bradsher's book, HIGH AND MIGHTY, for an excellent examination of the subject.) I believe this is the case particularly if you see one being driven by a city/suburb dweller.

Salty has it mostly right, but in fact SUVs can be more dangerous to their own drivers. SUV drivers have higher rates of injury in one-car accidents (i.e., losing control, going off the road, rolling over.)

In contrast, I think most people who buy pickup trucks actually do so because they need to haul stuff around. I have not noticed a particularly high level of jackassery from those drivers.

First, if I did emoticons, i'd give marko, reddan, cburch and orionz a "winky" emoticon.

Next: @salty: Agreed. Mass x force and all the relevant physics.

Finally: @jkp: First - if you reference "the numbers" then lets see some data. Otherwise your argument boils down to human behaviors. You're making a lot of assumptions and generalizations. The data may support your claim, and that is my point - in the absence of data its all just gross generalization about people who drive a kind of vehicle.

Others have said it, but I've seen people drive like jerks in cars, trucks, SUVs, and minivans. I've seen people ride bikes like jerks. I've seen people jaywalk and dodge into traffic on foot. I've seen huge jerks on the bus. I've seen all of these things, in every combination, crash into each other.

I ride a bike to work. Sometimes I walk. Sometimes I ride the bus. I drive a gigantic pickup truck and a small car too.

Blaming behavior on mode of transportation is distracting. I'd rather spend my time writing letters, emails, and getting word out to officials that there is a need for better infrastructure and enforcement of traffic laws.

^this

i've said this before, but i'll reiterate: i don't think the average driver of a truck or suv is any worse than any other driver. i simply think they're not better, and their vehicle requires more skill to drive, so they appear worse.

there are a LOT of people driving vehicles much larger than they need. I actually need something that can handle washed out fire roads daily, can haul a bunch of bikes and tools and gear and that i can sleep in. there are plenty of other people who also have a truck/suv that use it for the intended purpose, but i will readily agree that the vast majority of people driving these vehicles would be better served by a small car or maybe a crossover wagon.

i think that you should be required to parallel park whatever vehicle you want at the time of purchase. if you can't do it you get moved to the next smaller model until you are in something you can control.

cburch, my husband would never be able to own a car of any size (ok, maybe a smart car). Poor suburbanite that he is, can't parallel park to save his life. We always do the swap and I park it for him. Parking has always been one of the few things I'm good at in a car.

Reversing at an angle isn't necessarily indicative of skill at maneuvering on roads.

and, +10^6 for Pinky's post.

it is pretty indicative of having the spacial awareness to understand exactly where your vehicle ends though. i think a lot of issues that we deal with (buzzing, hooks, etc) arise partly because people just dont have any god damn idea how much space they do or dont need for whatever they are trying to do with their vehicle.

also, in ny you cant get your license unless you can parallel park. no matter where you live. yet another stupid pendot loophole (like the emissions laws). grumble grumble.

I think it's hilarious when winter comes and SUV drivers end up stranded because they have no clue how to manage their vehicle on icy roads. They think the big heavy vehicle is going to protect them then discover that, well, it doesn't necessarily work that way. Driving up Commercial once a few winters ago I slid into an SUV parked on the road (small damage to my small car, no damage to her SUV). The owner was waiting outside the car, telling her husband she'd gotten out because she didn't feel safe inside. So she and her daughter were waiting in the cold "for a salt truck". Good luck with that. I went the other way home.

My own experience with wide cars (minivans in my case) is that it takes quite a bit of experience to get used to the extra width if you're used to driving a small car. Until you do you you may pass dangerously closely on the right. I think a lot of SUV owners never get used to that width.

And don't get me started on pickup trucks. I'm pretty sure it is observational bias on my part but I see a lot of pickup drivers who seem to think that the only cool way to get from place to place is in a truck, and anyone else on the road is just asking to get buzzed or yelled at as they drive by. I just don't see small car drivers leaning out their windows and yelling at cyclists as they drive past.

most people around here also have no clue that "all season tires" arent worth shit in actual winter weather...

Almost every time I encounter an aggressive driver, it's an SUV. Just yesterday I had one behind me at a red light yelling at me to get off the road or buy a motorcycle.

FWIW, a NASA engineer recently conducted a very informal experiment and found that 6% of drivers actually went out of their way to kill an animal on the road. Of that 6%, 89% drove SUVs.

The unfortunate reality is that SUVs do tend to attract a certain demographic of people whose empathic abilities leave much to be desired and think the only reason I ride a bike is because I haven't considered buying a motorcycle.

Bill Peduto chimes in

*Good* all season tires work terrific in the winter, most just plain suck. People refuse to spend any amount of money on the most important part of the car. I have had the best winter tires, the best snow tires, and a few different types of vehicles and have zero issues with a VW and Michelin all-season tires.

"The unfortunate reality is that SUVs do tend to attract a certain demographic of people whose empathic abilities leave much to be desired..."

Can you cite your source please? It sounds like a fascinating study.

@ALMKLM

Didn't intend for that statement to come off as empirical as it sounded. I was mainly referring to the very informal roadkill study I mentioned, and my own recent experiences.

Nonetheless, auto market research has been keeping track of buyers' psychological profile for years.

(pp. 101-104, pretty fascinating indeed)

http://books.google.com/books?id=OQnSPlhg80MC&lpg=PP1&ots=zW3uABsZSH&dq=inauthor%3A%22Keith%20Bradsher%22&pg=PA104#v=onepage&q&f=false

As I was unlocking my bike yesterday in the parking garage, I heard a huge thud that scared the crap out of me. I looked up in time to see some jackass in a SUV run the rear driver's side tire off of the 5" curb. He couldn't possibly get his parking ticket, drive forward, and park. He Ran up onto the curb. Ugh. I was about 10 feet away and was not ever in danger of being harmed, but I called him a moron, and I hope he heard it, as his window was still down.

In beaver county, it wasn't required to parallel park.

Took my driver exam in E Rochester (at age 27, fwiw). Pretty sure i had to do the parallel-park-between-the-cones-in-the-lot thing, but all i really remember is just barely not coming to a full-and-complete stop and being told by the inspector that if i did that down in The City that I'd surely get a ticket. Ha.

BTW, in Michigan at least as of 2004 you were more likely to pass your driver exam if you half-assed your parking section than if you took the time and effort to do it right. They started you off with a certain number of points, then subtracted one for each infraction like being over the line on the stop test or being over the line in any direction on the parking tests, yes---but also for every time you changed direction (after, I think, 1) on the parallel parking test. Since I ended up going back and forth four or five times trying to get it perfect, I lost more points than I would've if I'd left to damn thing hanging half out of the spot. And thus did I miss the chance to get my licence at 22.

My daughter just got her license in E. Rochester a month ago, and she had to demonstrate parallel parking.

Glad to see that things have changed since 1997

@ schmenjamin "Almost every time I encounter an aggressive driver, it's an SUV"

The driver isn't the vehicle. My run ins have overwhelmingly been with white guys in their 50's - 60's regardless of vehicle type. Vans, cars, PAT busses, pickups, SUV's, whatever. Don't blame the vehicle, blame the ass behind the wheel. Lucky for us, that generation is starting to die off... but they'll likely keep driving well past the point when they should be taken off the road. I say retest everyone every 5 years starting at 50, otherwise bad driving habits are just endemic. Most of these assholes are living in the automobile glory days of the 60's and have zero accountability when it comes to getting up to speed with changing rules.

@quizzbot, I disagree. I think EVERYONE should be retested every 5 years.

+1 Marko.

And retests should focus not merely on mechanical driving skills, but on awareness and comprehension of recently passed laws.

Road drivers pay tax for things like retesting themselves. Shouldn't be a problem since they all toe the line.

i got rear ended while driving a bus on penn avenue yesterday no damage at all to the bus the guy just drove off he had to of messed his car up

@shmenjamin: that is interesting. And yet, still gross generalizations (regardless of sample size, these are not 100% across the board). Plus, I don't see the connection between "insecure and self-centered" and "wants to mow down cyclists."

(As an aside - my family defies each of the "findings" of the automotive marketing agenda: I drive a truck because I need it for my job. My wife used to drive an SUV because we needed a vehicle to accommodate car seats when the kids were smaller. We've since moved to a compact wagon.)

IMHO, the automotive "truths" are not self-evident, I'm afraid. And the link between the research and the behavior is speculative at best. I think quizbot put it best above: "The driver isn't the vehicle."

+1 Marco and Dan

Retesting for everybody!

Vehicle (size) affects behavior.

When I was a kid (a rather long time ago) my parents, I, their friends (2 adults, one kid) made it to NYC in a VW Beetle (tiny way back then). Sure, people weren't as fat back then, but still...

I don't know for a fact, but I doubt the driver would have felt compelled (as current ones seem to be) to force cyclists off the road.

@Ahlir: really? If every "large vehicle driver" was "compelled (as current ones seem to be) to force cyclists off the road" there would be NO CYCLISTS ON THE ROAD.

This is ridiculous. You took a roadie to NYC however long ago in a VW bug, and that has given you insight into the thought process of SUV drivers all these years later? How is that even relevant?

And please, cite your source for this "compulsion."

Sorry if this is a repeat, but this is hilarious:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/opinion/letters/issue-one-bikes-and-cars-648703/

"I've seen bikes on Becks Run Road force me over the double yellow line."

I want THOSE super powers. I'd LOVE to be able to force cars over the line rather than buzz my handlebars. I'd likely use them to simply slow cars down, though.

She admits to driving too fast for conditions and failing to pay attention to the road in front of her as reasons cyclists should be banned from roads. Sigh.

The whole thing has nothing to do with what kind of vehicles people drive or any other fact than people just have absolutely no respect for their fellow man anymore.

I started commuting again to work the last couple of months, pretty regularly — along with just biking in general after some time off. I've been riding everywhere in Pittsburgh for years. I would say in the last week, just commuting to work I've had crap thrown at me, obscenities screamed at me, horns honked at me and I've even had a couple of brushes with vehicles clipping me as they pass by.

I would never recommend riding around here other than the bike paths to someone who can't deal with that nonsense.

Between fast roads with no shoulders to speak of, blind turns on a steep climb where people come whipping up at 40mph right up to your back wheel and then blare on the horn, this morning I had a school bus try and run me off into the brush hanging out into the road because he must have been late getting to his stop.

I pretty much assume I am taking my life into my own hands when I go riding in the city. I love it though, it is not something I hate to do by any stretch — but I do accept the fact the roads here are no place for someone without thick skin or the ability to ride aggressively and claim your spot on the road regardless of how badly the drivers flip out at you.

I find the more aggressively I ride, claiming the middle of the lane if there is no safe shoulder, and forcing people to slow down and only pass when there is nobody in the oncoming lane, keeps me safer. When you force drivers to behave they typically do (even if they yell and scream while doing it). What would they do if it was a farm tractor in front of them instead of a cyclist?

I would not say most people are disrespectful of cyclists out on the road, we just remember the ones who are, but at the same time I deal with them EVERY SINGLE TIME I RIDE. Without exception I am going to have to deal with some idiot out on the road every time I ride my bike. I just know that going into it.

But the thing is every time I drive somewhere I see idiots on the road getting in my way anyway. I had a guy look me dead in the eye and pull out right in front of me the other day as I was driving past an intersection where he had to stop.

And just look at how many people are crashing their friggin' cars into BUILDINGS!!! I mean, I think I see a new story or video every WEEK about that! It used to be NEWS when someone drove their vehicle into a building but now it happens all the time.

Some people are way too impatient and full of themselves that the taking of a life to save 30 seconds on their drive home is worth it. The issue is not really cycling related at all but more of the degeneration of people and having not even the decency to respect the fact you aren't the only one out there.

And I am one of those "big SUV driving douches" LOL and I will NEVER EVER EVER EVER own a small car again, especially not in this city.

I don't feel the need to run bikers over when I am out and about. There are definitely people out there who I would love to run over but I have enough respect for my fellow man to let it slide!

Adam, I don't think people see it as a choice between taking a life or slowing down for 30 seconds. People see it as a choice between being late or being later. The fact that their choices can take a life totally escapes most drivers. Otherwise their 40 mile commute and the evening full of errands wouldn't just be stressful, it would be hours daily worth of harrowing life-or-death experiences.

I'm not defending, just seeking to understand.

Ej, I think there is a flaw in your logic. My brother drives like a complete a-hole 100% of the time. It has nothing to do with being late, nor is he trying to get somewhere faster – it’s just how he drives. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve yelled at him to slow down on my dead-end street due to the high number of kids that live here, but almost every time he comes over his car almost screeches to a halt. He has been in a slew of minor accidents, has gotten ticketed, and is constantly replacing tires, etc. from hitting curbs and potholes that he “didn’t see”. He is simply a jerk behind the wheel

Adam, curious why you will "NEVER EVER EVER EVER own a small car again, especially not in this city."

But I think that helps prove my point - he doesn't think his actions will hurt anybody. Unless you think he DOES believe that, in which case I feel for you having a jackass sibling, and he's just one of those people that my brain doesn't like to accept exists with no respect for human life.

Most people who are not psychopaths, when they REALLY understand human lives are at stake, will behave accordingly. Most people just forget, or never understood to begin with.

on big vs. small cars - I drove an Excursion once the year they came out, on an off-road demo course in Michigan. It was so much fun. I could not imagine attempting to navigate our narrow streets in that behemoth. I prefer smaller cars - easier to park, easier to maneuver (for me). On highways, though, I can see big car appeal. In the city, I can't.

@ejwme, but didn't you feel like Jack Bauer? I sure did, when I was driving an Excursion in FL. It is an insanely stupid car if you are not fighting terrorists, though. (And I've always wondered about his ability to get around LA traffic jams in such a big car -- seems like a bike might be helpful now and then.)

Ej, no I don’t think he intentionally drives badly; it’s just that he’s immature despite being in his fifties.

oh, I felt like a bad guy in a dundee movie. Like any turn would bring me to the edge of a cliff, over which I would see the jungle expanse below me, and realize that since my character had no name, my fate was sealed...

I find the more aggressively I ride, claiming the middle of the lane if there is no safe shoulder, and forcing people to slow down and only pass when there is nobody in the oncoming lane, keeps me safer.

+1

rsprake — The reason for not ever driving a car again (well, technically I had a 2nd car which was a Kia for awhile and drove it a lot) — but anyway, the money I spend in extra gas is compensated by not needing a new suspension every year because of the horrible road conditions, and having 4WD in the winter is of course advantageous around here. I also use my SUV's cargo capabilities all of the time and constantly carry things that I could never fit in a car — and use it for camping and carrying all of that gear, a canoe, bikes, etc.

I do have good reasons for not wanting to drive a car but if I had a ridiculous commute I would probably get a gas saver for that purpose if the cost justified the gas savings over time.

My mother drives a full size Silverado pickup a very long way to work, so when she bought a little Fiat recently, her car payments and total cost of ownership for that 2nd car are STILL a cost savings for her over what it cost to drive the giant truck back and fourth to work.

I certainly don't feel very safe anymore driving a small car on the highway after driving an SUV up off the ground for so long — and I drive safer in the SUV since I always had a lead foot when I drove little zipper cars.

Overall it is the best choice for me unless someday I get into a commuting situation that calls for saving mad gas.

Perhaps it was because it was Kia that you needed a new suspension every year?

hyperbole - hy·per·bo·le/h??p?rb?l?/

Noun: Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

@Adam I certainly don't feel very safe anymore driving a small car on the highway after driving an SUV up off the ground for so long

It's funny how TV ads push that very hard - but TV news won't ever risk their major ad dollars by reporting how much safer cars are than SUVs. Nor would most major magazine or newspapers - particularly not the mainstream Fox news and right wing radio.

Watch much TV? My impression is that a desire to drive an SUV is a sign a person watches far too much.

correlation != causation.

The discussion of the perceived safety of SUV's dovetails with my own personal theory, which I have espoused previously, that the safer vehicles are made for the driver, the more dangerous they become for everyone else, that is, drivers feel safer, they drive more shittily, and take more risks.

The inverse component of my theory is that, if every vehicle had a 6" steel spike projecting from the steering wheel toward the driver, rather than an airbag, roadways would become unimaginably safe.

+1^

I would say wanting to drive an SUV vs. a tiny car out on the highway has more to do with the difference between riding a mountain bike vs a road bike just about anywhere. Yeah, it is slower but you can go anywhere and aren't worried about things that would eat up a road bike wheel for breakfast.

Don't worry, I won't stop driving the Jeep just because someone on a message board doesn't like them. But I am not running bikers off the road either so we should be able to get along!

And yes, the Kia needed new suspension parts because it was a Kia! However, the thing that cracks me up the MOST here in this city is anyone who drives a low rider. I mean, how does one even pull into a parking lot around here with one of those — without needing to replace the exhaust every other week!

(@Ahlir: I made a comment in response to your post above. It was needlessly aggressive, unproductive and borderline uncivil. I always hate it when I get pounced on, so I just wanted to apologize for doing it to you.)

Adam, your reasoning actually make sense to me, though I have a different opinion about vehicles for myself. Kias have improved a lot, though... I'm sad you had a bum experience with one

I love tiny cars. The smaller, the better - easier to park, and I feel like I'm better able to keep track of the sides of my vehicle. I also prefer small houses and small rooms, and I even liked working on submarines, I just prefer compact little spaces - always have. I'm weird like that.

But with a 30 mile one way 98% highway commute (20miles on turnpike), I wish I drove a huge SUV sometimes. I drive a sedan, not even a compact one, and nobody gives a shit if I'm in even the slow lane (assuming they notice). I've been forced off the road once a month since I started commuting on the turnpike. I believe, correctly or not, that if I were in an SUV or better yet a big pickup, I'd be a pauper for gas money but nobody would ever run me off the road. It's to the point that if I see a semi or bus moving to pass me, I brake gently, as safely as I can, to get it over with faster. I'm now worried that THAT's not safe either in some way I can't predict. I hate driving.

Highways are like some kind of scary wild west with tons of metal and painful physics. It's like real life frogger, at speed.

I wish we had a better passenger train system.

just heard that another cyclist was hit on penn and 33rd. not sure of anything else. anybody know any details?

Yeesh, I turn from 33rd right onto penn every single day.

Rode by on the way home, around 6:45 p... nothing obvious at that intersection.