BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I hate that this happens in broad daylight. I almost hit a pedestrian driving around in the car tonight, simply because they were invisible. :( By almost, I mean, not really even remotely close... but, I still feel like it could have gone in the wrong direction. I don't understand how this happens at 10:30 am. Poor puppy. :(

That sucks. Probably someone going to the waterfront. I'm shocked by this given how perfectly drivers on their way to/from the waterfront typically behave.

"...pedestrian accident..." (head explodes) It doesn't mention if the dog was wearing a helmet. Morons.

I've biked through there, I've driven through there. It's not that difficult a corner to negotiate without killing something ... assuming you're going the speed limit.

Must have been a bad day for animals. There was a young deer injured in the middle of 2nd ave in hazelwood when our group ride went through. The poor thing looked mortally wounded but was still hanging on. Of course several of the cars sitting behind the scene were honking their horns . Douchebags.

marko, i wished i hadn't gone on that ride because of that.. and then because of the dangerous route we took and my inability to accelerate well

StuInMcCandless wrote:speed limit

If people actually drove the speed limit OR below we would have much less to discuss as far as all the carnage on the roads. Most all of this is due to selfishness of people. Those in a hurry because THEY feel THEY are above all others. THEY need to get where THEY are going. Then someone dies due to their self absorbed shelfs and THEY wonder how it happened. Just pure selfishness is all it really is. Self importance without regard for anyone else. Plain and simple.

Due to the shoddy reporting, we don't know what actually happened here, I'm guessing the driver was turning left on Lilac towards Beechwood, and quite possibly trying to "beat out" oncoming traffic that they were fixated on. Even at the speed limit, that probably constitutes "too fast for conditions", as evidenced by the fact they hit someone while doing it. I was just thinking about this 10 minutes ago as I drove through the intersection of Shady & Wilkins where someone was hit a few weeks ago. Every time I go through that intersection (at least twice a day, usually by bike), I think back to that thread and it makes me angry. Again, due to shoddy reporting we don't know exactly what happened there - but it doesn't matter which way you're turning, there are no real obstructions to visibility and no excuse for not seeing someone in the intersection. If the aim is to take the turn as fast as possible, or sneak through a hole in traffic, then maybe the driver actually didn't see the person in the crosswalk but there is no one to blame but the driver. Anyways, back to the scenario in this thread, the overall road design encourages people to make a left on Lilac rather than doing it at the 4-way stop at the next intersection with Loretta, because there is a traffic light at Beechwood and Lilac, but not at Beechwood at Loretta. Since Beechwood is effectively a highway to the Waterfront, it's much easier to make a right at the light at Lilac, whereas if you try to make a right at Loretta you'll end up having to wait a really long time. And of course if you go all the way to the end of Murray, it's nigh impossible and even more dangerous to make the left on Bigelow St. So, most of the traffic ends up on Lilac, where you have to make an unsafe unprotected left. They should make it "No Left Turn" on Lilac and put in a light at Loretta and Beechwood.

How would you get from this part of town to the Waterfront by transit? What are cycling conditions like?

If I am thinking of the correct part of town, the direct way is down browns hill road to the homestead Greys bridge. It is an ass way to go because people speed. Even taking saline will force you into browns hill road

That's an especially stupid place for somebody to get hit Couldn't ask for a more open intersection On the note of shoddy reporting, I wonder if the dog was killed on the scene or if he/she was euthanized somewhere else I had to ride through deer remains the last few days before I was kind of laid off for the holidays, hoping they're gone when I go back in a few weeks At least I can take solace in knowing I lead a life of least harm that doesn't create other scenarios of nonhuman animals dying in agony

By transit, you could take a 61D or 64 directly to the Waterfront. Both stop at the intersection where the driver hit the pedestrians. So does the 61C, which goes near the Waterfront but not in. Good, frequent service.

I will admit to having never taken the 64 to the waterfront, because once you are there, then what? It is almost 1.5mi from end to end, and not especially walkable. We also tend to buy a ton of crap when we go there (maybe once a month), that wouldn't be easy to carry back on the bus. So, even though there is transit service, the whole thing isn't very amenable to using it. Not a big surprise, since it's a strip mall full of big box stores. Cycling there is no problem using the GAP although that's somewhat out of the way. I know people ride on Browns Hill, which should be no problem considering the speed limit is 25, although I'd venture to say the real average speed is at least 40 if not 50. Still, going down the hill you could probably do that on a bike if you're comfortable with those speeds. Going back up, not so much. I used to have this fantasy of buying a cargo bike (possibly e-assist) and using it to make trips there, but it's one of those places where I throw my arms up and just use a car. I suppose a better policy would be just to not shop there. They really did a number on that part of Greenfield between the parkway and the bridge, where this crash happened. It is essentially a highway through what used to be a quiet residential neighborhood.

Not walkable how? The Waterfront's got sidewalks along all the roads, unlike many suburban malls, and reasonable arrangements to cross the street in most parts. Sure, it's really long, but there are 5-7 transit stops (depending on the route) in various parts of the mall, so you're not likely to be walking the whole 1.5 miles. Some of the stores do require a 5-10 minute walk, but if you're going to a big box store, you might do more walking inside the store than it took to get there from the bus stop. Of course, if you switch from a car to transit, you're probably not going to be buying the 40 lb tub of peanut butter at Costco any more. And the bus is tough when you're buying a big-screen TV or some plywood at Lowe's. But transit is perfectly usable for normal shopping, if you can swing somewhat more frequent trips. (Cycling too, if you've got suitable gear and don't mind hauling your stuff up to whatever elevation you live at.)

True, there are sidewalks - but it's not dense enough, you're spending a lot of time walking past gigantic brick facades and parking lots. I don't disagree that you can walk, just that it's not a very inviting place to walk. I mean, technically you can walk along McKnight Rd as well. If I'm doing "normal" shopping (vs Costco) I'll just go to a much closer store in the city, so it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy that we drive down there - so, the best way out is not shopping there at all... especially once smoke moves to l'ville (which is how my wife usually tricks me into going with her).

I almost got hit at that exact same spot. I was walking across Lilac, on my way to Homer's service station. Some guy made a left from Murray to Lilac without looking for pedestrians or slowing down. He stopped just a foot or two short of hitting me. Regarding the Waterfront, my wife and I have taken the bus from Greenfield to there quite a few times over the years. Especially my wife before she got her license. They do at least have sidewalks, which is better than some shopping centers. I'm thinking of places in West Mifflin where instead of even building any sidewalks at all they put up "no pedestrians" signs everywhere. That shouldn't even be allowed in the building code. However, I agree with Salty that the Waterfront that they should have tried a lot harder if they wanted to make a place that is really walkable. Just having sidewalks does not make it pedestrian-friendly. Even assuming they have to design the place for the vast majority of people arriving by car, there are lots of things they could have done to make it more walkable. I try not to go there much but I generally drive when I do. I have a family of five and it can take a good bit of money and effort to do my normal shopping by transit. It also makes sense to buy some things at Costco (including peanut butter sometimes). I'm guessing that me driving a 2.3 miles each way once a month to buy a van-load of bulk goods at Costco is not exactly the least environmentally-sound way to buy stuff. It may not be the best but it could be a lot worse. When I ride my bike home from downtown I often stop at a tiny locally-owned grocery store (Merante) in Oakland to do shopping. I am trying to go there more often; despite being tiny they have a surprising amount of stuff and the shopping experience definitely beats Costco.

I agree about the density, but I think they're somewhat constrained by the narrowness of the land they had to work with. A conventional mall requires space for concentric rings of small shops, big shops, and parking, around the pedestrian area. It's hard to make that work in a property that's like 8 times as wide as it is deep.

The isolated little half attempt at creating the "towne centre" at the Waterfront just ends up being very strange to me. I don't go there often enough to know how well that works for people, but it seems like they completely failed at the tenant mix to make it attractive to people.

The road design around Murray/Lilac/Loretta seems okay. I live in that area and any issues I have in car or on bike tend to be caused by stupidity (my own sometimes included) not design. Murray/Hazelwood can be rough yet I can't recall ever seeing an incident there. I've gone down Old Browns Hill road quite a few times outbound to various other places (generally at very low traffic times of the day). I really wish there was an alternative. The manhole covers and expansion joints are particularly treacherous. There is no shoulder and the sidewalk is particularly skinny and not even suitable for walking. As noted before, speeds are 40-50 mph (which across a highway bridge is a perfectly reasonable speed unless there is a foolish person on a bicycle there.) I feel that the area calls for alternative/segregated infrastructure. Possibly using one of the other bridges in the area. One unfortunate thing is that the sidewalks on the Homestead Grays bridge are really quite nice - there's just no good ways to get to either end of them.

I bike this area often , It is tough and not great for bike traffic. at the top of brownsvile i wait for the light to turn red and then i can lead the way down the hill alone, Haul ass to get to the last intersection and make left turn to get to sidewalk . The side walk across bridge is narrow with light poles to aviod . I think you would have to be crazy to bike the road across the bridge , average car speed is 50 plus

There's a ton of work that would need to be done to make access to the waterfront from anything but the trail remotely ok for the casual cyclist. The sidewalk on the right climbing back is smooth enough, but it's really narrow, and while I managed to navagate with a trailer, it was very close and unpleasant. And of course continuing up Browns hill sidewalk, ducking behind the Wendy's to Saline is pretty unfortunate since the grade is variable and at times steep. As bad as that is, the descent is actually worse for the casual cyclist (someone for whom zooming down claiming a lane and having cars pass at 20mph relative velocity is not ok). The "sidewalk" on the right is unusable narrow and not even flat while on Browns Hill. If you look at the street view you'll find a couple walking side by side, the woman in heels walking balance beam style presumably because that's better than the sideways pitch to her ankles. Trying to go down via the route up natural end of that sidewalk would take you down a ramp the wrong way. UGH.

Sooo... Sounds like the perfect place to take a Critical Mass ride, four dozen of us toodling along at 9 mph, taking the lane. Screw it. I might just go over there and plant myself in the left wheel track and go 9 mph some sunny day, all by myself.

I bike up that road every once in a while. Just take the lane. Hard part is merging over to the left to get into Greenfield. But yeah, not for the faint of heart What would be nice is if they had a consistent sidewalk all the way up both sides with curb cuts. You could also take the sidewalk up to the first right by where all the new housing is and then go down to nine mile run and then go up to Squirrel Hill from there Bill, I think the mixed use doesn't work because it's separated by a four? lane road. The more walking centric area on the other side of the Homestead Greys bridge is nice (by the movie theater) if you're into generic middle class stuff. Outlets...

IT would be so nice to be able to safely navigate this area . the whole thing is an accident waiting to happen .

Regarding connections from the Homestead Grays Bridge to Saline St, Mary Shaw and Roy Weil and Scott Bricker (Bike Pgh) lobbied with the city and with the Summerset developers to get a good bike connection from Parkview Blvd (the new road at the southwest end of Summerset that connected to Browns Hill Rd within the past year) and Saline St. There's space for it behind IHOP, the hillside has some landscaping that would nearly support it. But the city didn't get behind Bike Pgh's proposal, so it didn't happen. Maybe with the Peduto administration coming in, this idea could get implemented. This would be an important connection between two major Pittsburgh bike routes: the bike lane on Beechwood Blvd and the GAP trail in Homestead.

Yeah, that would have been really nice. I was scoping that area out to see if there was a connection like that after construction was mostly finished over there. I was really disappointed.

Good luck dealing with the coalition of Summerset residents who want to make that place as suburban as possible.

actually, @salty, we might be able to use that to our advantage. if we could convince them (scare them into believing might be the more cynical way to put it) that a) if we don't put a bicycle trail there, it will turn into an arterial road, and 2) if we do put a bicycle path there, it will never turn into a road for automobiles, we might be able to say there's only one way to keep your suburban banality\b\b\b\b\b\b\b\b\b peacefulness, and it's to open the way as a bike/jogging/stroller path.

I drove down to that clusterf*** yesterday, and remembered that its not just horrible for cyclists and peds, the whole thing is horribly designed even for vehicles. Between the line of 3 buses stuck in front of the stores, the complete mess caused by someone's car breaking down on the one road out of there, people cutting across the stupidly laid out parking lots, the many places where unprotected left turns across multiple lanes of traffic are required, etc.... Ugh. I also went through the intersection where the crash happened. Couldn't ask for better visibility there, but probably the driver was looking at oncoming traffic, "gunning it" to beat out said traffic, etc. It is not a safe situation with the volume of traffic the waterfront has induced there. On the way back, I did see two cyclists braving the bridge (in the downhill direction)... Kudos to them.