BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Roads are only dangerous because the people on them. I guess Diez proved that the road itself isn't dangerous, but the people on it are.

Shame that it's been spun by the local media as "shooting at bicyclist", as if that's somehow a special case to be handled differently.

No reason to treat it as anything more than "attempted murder by firearm"; it doesn't matter if the victim was on bike, on foot, or in a car.

reddan,

I can picture it now. Haul a cyclist into the ER, shot in the head, and all you get is "well, was he wearing a helmet??".

Get injured on your bike, and in many minds they just assume you are at fault for being on a bike in the first place, regardless of whatever happened to cause the injury. Sounds like here they are trying to spin the story the same way, even though the guy got a bullet to the dome. Crazy media!

Right, I was fired up over that when Scott brought it up in the Seattle blow dart thread.

The comments from this article are disgusting.

it's even more bizarre that it was a firefighter who did this. they're always the good guys in my mind.

not that this story would affect that image. firefighters are still tops in my book

Scott. It kind of upsets me that they mention he is a firefighter. What's that got to do with the incident? He was not on duty or representing the FD. If here were a dentist, would the newspaper have mentioned it?

On another note, it show that there are idiots in every profession. Even one that's supposed to be about promoting safety.

sgtshultz, yeah, they might have mentioned that he was a dentist. "What do you do?" is the standard opening line for small talk in the US, and they're not asking about hobbies.

i think they mentioned it because of the irony of the situation. here's a guy who is tasked with saving lives and keeping the public safe, who does something with such blatant disregard for safety and lives.

i think if i was driving a car and killed someone riding a bike or walking, you better believe they'd mention that i was a bike advocate that works for bikepgh.

likewise, if a dentist gets into a barfight and knocks some guys teeth out, they'd mention that too

The mentioning of him being a firefighter is to raise a frenzy among the citizens, it's the media's way of selling a story. Pay attention to the story as I'm willing to bet somewhere down the line the bike rider is going to get the worst, simply by having his 3 yr old in a buggy is going to have everyone there screaming bloody murder.

"likewise, if a dentist gets into a barfight and knocks some guys teeth out, they'd mention that too"

Man I wish I could read that article...

Was the firefighter's name, Guy Montag?

Jokes aside, though, be careful who you decide to verbally tangle with, out there. You have no idea if someone is going to go all Col. Kurtz, on you.

man bites dog

i think they mentioned it because of the irony of the situation. here's a guy who is tasked with saving lives and keeping the public safe, who does something with such blatant disregard for safety and lives.

even more ironic is that the argument started because the shooter was apparently concerned about safety and lives. wtf?

Anyone who would shoot someone else, whose small child is a couple feet away, deserves a special corner of hell.

Buncombe grand jury rejects attempted murder charge for Asheville fireman

A Buncombe County grand jury declined to indict an Asheville firefighter on a charge of attempted first-degree murder involving a bicyclist, opting instead for a lesser charge...assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill.

One of the commenters at this site opines:

... The crime was not premeditated and therefore can not be tried as a first degree murder case. District Attorney Ron Moore new this when he presented this case to the Grand Jury. A rookie cop knows the elements that must be met for a person to be charged with first degree murder. Mr. Moore presented the first degree murder option so that it would appear to the public that he was really going after this fireman. He knew full well that they could not return a first degree murder attempt. The question is why? Is the fix already in? The grand jury should have been given the option of attempted second degree murder, and attempted manslaughter. Ron Moore knows this!

yeesh

Although our instinct is "more is better," I think the charge is appropriate. This was not a premeditated attempt to kill the someone. It was assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill.

I'm guessing it will be plea-bargained down to simple "assault with a deadly weapon".

For me, as long as the perp spends some months meditating on his misdeed and thinking about how lucky he was that the bullet missed, justice will be served.

Mick

As long as the charge is a felony, it'll have the necessary effect. If convicted, no more guns for this guy and I'd expect his career as a firefighter would be over, too.

But just in case, I'm checking to see if Giro also offers the Pneumo in kevlar.

UPDATE: Former Asheville firefighter Charles Alexander Diez will spend four months in prison for shooting cyclist Alan Simons in July. Diez plead guilty to assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill yesterday.

http://www.mountainx.com/news/2009/former_asheville_firefighter_gets_4_months_for_shooting_cyclist

WoW a whole 4 months with the rest suspended. Wouldn't you figure that putting a bullet into someones head would be treated more seriously. What if it was the other way around and the guy on the bike shot the driver for whatever reason. Would he get a slap on the wrist like that?

Another thing that boggles me is that it seems he got it pretty easy because he was in the military and served the community. In my opinion his punishment should be more severe because he is supposed to be a professional and is trained on how to use firearms and what damage they can cause. Not to mention that most children look up to firemen. If this guy was really a pillar of their community he wouldn't have shot another member of that community over something so silly.

Does anyone feel that he received any special treatment?

No; I think Mick had it right:

For me, as long as the perp spends some months meditating on his misdeed and thinking about how lucky he was that the bullet missed, justice will be served.

But that's here and now. See my comment above, too.

I just think those months should be years. People can get 3 months for repeat DUI charges. I just figured that shooting someone would be considered a violent crime and from what I have seen suspended sentences are usually only given to non violent offenders.

ugh, hearing stories like this makes me feel a little sick about the state of humanity...

I'm with gimpPAC.

But then again, William Zantzinger only got 6 months for a drunken killing. Why should anyone get any more for a failed killing?

Because people who are drunk are considered to have diminished capacity and not entirely responsible for their actions. The firefighter was completely sober and chose to attempt to kill the cyclist. It was only random chance that he did not succeed.

Kordite: I was being facetious. William Zantzinger is a rich white dude who killed a black lady in the early 60s because she took a bit long to bring him his drink, and only got 6 months for it.

Not that I wish to compare cycling with the US civil rights movement, but it did make me think of it.

I didn't know the Zantzinger reference.

Two guys in San Francisco who shot pellet guns at cars are getting nearly 4 years in prison. Something doesn't seem quite balanced in that.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/11/24/BA4S1APQ8B.DTL

meanwhile in pittsburgh, a graffiti artist originally got 2-5 years

Maybe I'm nuts but I'd like to think that up here in Pittsburgh there might have been a stiffer sentence imposed for shooting a cyclist through the helmet.

I guess it would depend on who is pulling the trigger.

Kordite: In retrospect, I should have stuck an explanatory link onto Zantzinger's name, cause I'm sure it was just me showing my nature as an out-of-my-time flower child. He was made (in)famous by a Dylan song, "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll."

It's not as fair a comparison as your pellet guns, or erok's graffiti. Just made me think of it.

I just think those months should be years. People can get 3 months for repeat DUI charges. I just figured that shooting someone would be considered a violent crime and from what I have seen suspended sentences are usually only given to non violent offenders.

I think repeated DUI charges are no less dangerous.

just for clarification, it's not my graffiti

I guess guns aren't high on the instruments of crime list. However, it's all about multiplication with these offenses. You damage 42 cars over 3 months or you tag a few hundred private properties, and those individual instances of crime add up to a very long period of time to serve several dozen successive sentences.

Perhaps if the fire fighter had attempted to spray at a crowd of cyclists with spray paint or spit, then he could have been brought up on multiple instances of assault?

still think shooting at someone should be a bit higher on the list than spray painting a thousand buildings

I think they cut him a break due to his history - Vet, firefighter, those are big things to most judges. No prior history of crime - that is also a big thing. He pled guilty - that's good for little bit off a sentence.

He has 4 months for sure, but also a suspended sentence of an additional 11-23 months. His probation officer owns him for a few years. If the guy messes up, he goes back to jail.

IIUC correctly, the combination of anger management and suspended sentence means that if someone sucker punches him in bar, he either walks away or goes to jail.

He's lost his career, I'm thinking.

I'm guessing that this was an extreme life-changeing event for the guy - as it should be.

I'm not sure of the details for the graffiti artist.

To me, 2-5 years sounds way long. 30 days would be about appropriate. Courts value property more than I do, more than most of us here, though .

I'd also guess the guy had been caught before. Judges do not like frequent fliers and they tend not to like hints of anarchy.

An isolated act of unjustified rage is different than a pattern of behavior.

Mick

An isolated act of unjustified rage

I don't believe there is such a thing.

If this dude was hotheaded enough to cap someone in the dome at the drop of a hat (no pun intended), I'm betting he had a few prior acts of rage under his belt.

Very true, Just might have never had the law involved before.

I'm wondering if this guy's reaction didn't have something to do with the cultural environment down there. Asheville is a pretty progressive island in a pretty redneck state, so the more things change, the more threatened the hard core dickheads feel. Sort of like the country in general. I would expect to see more of this until the legal system makes really, really serious examples of this kind of thing, re: the road rage doctor in CA.

^^wot he said

Crazy man... He probably only got 3 months since nobody was hurt unfortunately. And yeah, I guess vandalizing someone's bike helmet with a bullet is not as much property damage as glass-etching a bunch of Starbucks windows and bus stop shelters.

It is sad that the guy would have had to been injured or killed for that douche to end up in prison for a suitable length of time.

Just remember, if you get jacked at some driver honking at you on your next ride, you can bust a cap at them so long as you don't actually hit them and you should be out of the klink in no time.

Anybody remember this, from 2004;

"MONROEVILLE, Pa. (AP) - A bicyclist shot a truck driver in the arm during a confrontation that began when the man pedaling the bike made an obscene gesture, police said.

Robert Urick, 41, was charged with attempted homicide, aggravated assault and weapons offenses.

William Nicoletti, 51, told police that when he drove past Urick in his pickup truck Saturday, Urick made an obscene gesture.

Nicoletti said he turned around and drove toward Urick, who pulled out a pistol and threatened to shoot, police said. Officers said Urick then reached into the truck and shot Nicoletti once in the arm, and rode away on his bike.

Nicoletti rammed Urick off his bike and they fought briefly until Urick fled again, police said.

Police said they arrested Urick, of Monroeville, later that day, and he told them he made the gesture because Nicoletti had told him to get off the road.

Urick remained in jail Monday in lieu of $100,000 bail. A hearing was set for Feb. 17."

I couldn't find whatever the final outcome was. I guess the truck driver should have been wearing a helmet.

I don't remember it, but searching for followup lead to a nice Wiki entry on "Bike rage" (you know you feel it) and to a couple of news story.

A Monroeville bicyclist has been jailed on charges that he tried to kill a pickup truck driver during a road rage incident Saturday afternoon near the entrance to Monroeville Park.

The driver, William J. Nicoletti, was shot once in the arm in the confrontation.

No injuries were reported to the bike rider, Robert T. Urick.

Nicoletti, 51, told Monroeville police that he was driving along Tillbrook Road when Urick, 41, who was riding the bicycle, made an obscene gesture as the truck passed him.

Urick later told police that he reacted that way because Nicoletti had told him to get off the road.

Nicoletti said that he turned his truck around and drove toward Urick, who pulled a pistol, pointed it at him and stated that Nicoletti had "five seconds to get out [of the truck] or he would shoot," according to an affidavit that supports Urick's arrest.

Nicoletti said that Urick then reached inside the truck and shot him in the arm.

As Urick rode away, Nicoletti said that he pursued him in the truck, ramming the bicycle from behind, forcing it off the road.

The two men then fought briefly until Urick fled.

Nicoletti was treated at Mercy Hospital for a bullet wound of the arm.

Under questioning at county police headquarters, Urick denied having possessed or fired a weapon. He admitted that he had fought with Nicoletti, ending the fight only after Nicoletti submitted, the affidavit said.

Urick was arraigned on charges of attempted homicide, aggravated assault and two weapons violations.

He was being held last night in the Allegheny County Jail on $100,000 bond, pending a preliminary hearing Feb. 17 at 1 p.m. before District Justice Walter Luniewski in Monroeville.

The finger is always a bad idea of course. On the other hand, it is a clear response to being told to get off the road and not completely inappropriate.

It isn't clear to me that the bicyclist acted unreasonably with the gun here. The truck is a weapon - as was shown by the subsequent acts of the motorist.

"Sir, step AWAY from your weapon."

http://post-gazette.com/pg/05130/501994.stm

Bicyclist sentenced to 12 years for shooting motorist

Bicyclist convicted of shooting a pickup truck driver will spend at least 12 years in prison for the alleged road rage incident.

Allegheny County Judge Lawrence O'Toole yesterday cited the defendant's "casual approach to violence" in sentencing Robert Urick, 42, of Monroeville, to 12 years to 25 years, 10 months, in prison.

A jury in March acquitted Urick of attempted homicide but convicted him of aggravated assault and firearms violations in the February 2004 shooting of William Nicoletti.

Nicoletti testified that Urick made an obscene gesture at him, and when he drove back to confront the bicyclist, Urick opened fire into the pickup and one of the bullets struck Nicoletti in the chest.

First published on May 10, 2005 at 12:00 am

12 years strikes me as a helluva harsh sentence. Judge and jury of car owners, I imagine. That isn't far-fetched, after all.

Maybe we should be campaigning for Urick's release.

Thanks for finding the follow-up. 12 years, ridiculous!!! For self defense. I wish I had been more active at the time, I would have been marching in front of the freaking court house. It's difficult to know if anything can be done retro-actively. It would be interesting to see if this guy can be contacted and if he would be willing to share his story. It kind of seems like the culture has shifted quite a lot in 5 years though.

well.. the fact that the cyclist told him " get out of the truck or I will shoot" does put the blame squarely on the cyclist. At that point its no longer self defense.

Obviously none of us were there so who knows how it actually went down, but I do agree that 12 years seems pretty steep and it seems like it was used as an "example" case.

Well, based on the Pa corrections website, he is inmate no. ge8644 at SCI Mercer. Anybody on here have a journalistic bent?

Does anyone know anything about the cyclists background? Was he in the armed services or did he work for the fire department or even drive a ambulance? I am wondering if he had years of service like the man in Asheville. I am not saying that a persons background should get them off the hook I am just wondering if he had the credentials like the man in Ashewille because it certainly seemed to help him out.

Not that it should matter when handing out punishments but did the cyclist have a lot to lose? Does anyone feel that losing you job,family ect should be taken into consideration when sentencing? Btw I dont think it should. Its not the courts job to worry what will happen to a persons life when they have broken the law. To be honest someone that is trained to deal with stressful situations like a firefighter or police man should be held more responsible for a illegal act such as we have seen here because they see what damage can be done first hand. Not to mention that they are here to protect the public not to act like lunatics.

netviln, have to disagree. The thing that isn't in dispute is that the driver turned the truck around and came back at him because of a HAND GESTURE. Asking him to get out of the truck would effectively be "disarming" him as self protection, take the keys, throw 'em, walk away. If this asshole driver had just kept going, nothing would have happened.

I wouldn't mind running into this Nicolleti idiot sometime, we would have an interesting conversation.

looks like you only get 12-24 years for killing someone with a gun, too.

http://post-gazette.com/pg/09349/1021144-100.stm

Ow. Mental note: never call girlfriend names when she's carrying my gun in her purse.

(btw, I don't really own any guns)