BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Spec work:

http://youtu.be/DsstOs-K7gk

Kind of meh for a three dimensional object to only show one image repeatedly on all sides

White will also show grime pretty quickly and it looks like the image built that in as a feature

I never thought about whether it was spec work. Yeah, I can't tolerate people who ask for spec work, It's crazy.

That aside, it's the bike theme that sucked me in. I don't care about much else.

I really wanted it to be my favourite, but then I saw the croc box.

That bicycle box, designed by Mundania Horvath, is down by Espresso a Mano in Lawrenceville.

I wouldnt consider any of it spec work, this is out of my department at CP, but I'm under the impression a handful of folks sent us in sketches and we gave them the box + some funds for production. I think there is 10 of them in total, and they are placed throughout the city. Not sure what the point of this voting is though, as all 10 boxes are already produced.

Also, Wildcard in Lawrenceville has a handful of prints of Mundania's other work, including some bicycle themed posters like this: http://www.etsy.com/listing/94729962/bicycle-no1

Per the CP's post:

"This summer, City Paper invited artists to submit designs for turning our newspaper boxes into aesthetic objects. We received a deluge of entries, and City Paper commissioned 10 of those"

I missed the "we commissioned" bit the first time, so that's a step in the right direction, but they still got a bunch of design work for free in the first round of this "contest"

Artists turning in designs with the hopes of it being commissioned is exactly what spec work is

It was just sketches though, not the design work. I think the way they worded it is misleading. Less work than many firms would spend on proposals for potential jobs.

But upon further thought, I suppose you are are right. When I think about it, I always charge my clients for my sketching process.

wouldn't submitting sketches be like submitting an RFQ (request for qualifications)?

The most ethical way is to select artists and designers based on examples of their past work, together with recommendations. Then, commission new work.

I know the conventions are sometimes different in architecture. Also, big ad agencies routinely offer free/cheap design services (and sometimes do spec work) in order to land big jobs where they are really making the main profit from media placement (e.g. buying ad space for the client).

Here is the AIGA's (main professional or gor designers in the US) definition and position RE spec work: http://www.aiga.org/position-spec-work/

The bike rack competitions currently circulating in the city also seem like spec work (you have to submit a new design without compensation in order to get selected), and for those fortunate enough to get picked, I will be curious if they will be able to pay themselves at all for time.

[edit] this latest version actually seems to be doing it the right way (and the fee went up, too!) nice to see...

http://bike-pgh.org/blog/2012/10/22/cultural-trust-seeking-artists-to-design-bike-racks-for-the-cultural-district/

The most ethical way is to select artists and designers based on examples of their past work, together with recommendations.

Doesn't that tend to heavily favor established designers over new folks? If ten people have hired you to design flower shop logos before, one of them is likely to resemble what the new flower shop customer wants. Not so the newer designer.

Companies often set prices in a way that doesn't match their costs, giving stuff away when it suits them. (You can see the best 60 seconds of that new $200 million movie for free.) If all designers did spec work at the beginning of all jobs, prices for the final work would just adjust to cover that cost, the same way movie studios use huge profits on successful films to cover the costs of the many movies that bomb, or the plumber gives you a free estimate, or the lawyer discusses your case for free while you're deciding whether to hire him.

I'm not surprised that a trade organization is opposed to spec work. Established designers have an interest in keeping new designers from succeeding in their field. Less competition means higher prices.

But their arguments against it seem very weak to me. To roughly paraphrase them: "All the contest entries might be bad." In which case clients would have stopped running them, no? The fact that clients keep running contests or asking for spec work means they're usually happy with the results. "The client might not pay the winner, or not enough anyway." No one would do spec work any more for such a client (though admittedly designers would get ripped off until the client develops a bad rep). "The designer might steal the design from elsewhere." This can happen whether or not it's spec work, no?

Does not every job tend to favor established professionals? Having a design that resembles what the customer wants seems like a good thing.

Your idea about everybody including spec work into the costs only works if everybody gets paid evenly or at all, which isn't the case. Somebody could do spec work 100 times and never get selected.

It's interesting you reference movie studios as an example, because I'm sure they don't do spec work. Their artists get paid.

These contests often pull hundreds of entries. Do you get hundreds of estimates from plumbers or go to hundreds of lawyers to discuss your case?

Depending on the contest, the entry is often the finished result. So it's not just like a plumber saying "Oh yeah, it's probably going to be x amount of dollars," it's the artist doing the entire piece.

New designers (or any artists) succeed by working hard and establishing their craft. Winning one of these contests and a measly $500? isn't going to make or break them.

I think the fact that organizations keep running contests is more of a recognition of them appreciating the free labor, not that the results are successful.

Holy fucking fuckity fuck. I agree with pierce. Also want to ad that I've seen more than one client, and I'm talking large corporations, take spec concept work from an RFP and give it not to the agency that did the work, but to the lowest bidder and say "this is what we want" thus both the client and the winning agency benefit from the thinking of the losing one. And thinking is all we have to sell really.

I actually just had a very large and well known national company try to do this to me. 5-600 hours of illustration work. They comped everything internally by cutting up old illustrations of mine (from my site, totally fine as long as it was just internal comps) and requested "test" illustrations from me multiple times, including less than 24 hours before informing me that they were going to hire the illustrator that underbid me by about $5,000, after they spent 3 months trying to get spec work out of me and I had already dropped my rate by a third after they kept beating me up over it.

This happens all the time in our industry. Spec work is bullshit.

there's no doubt spec work is bs. the question is whether the cp contest or the cultural trust competition is spec work or not.

^That stinks, sorry to hear you were bitten by a bunch of jerks.

@decafdan well i wasn't bitten so much as jerked around. i refused to do the spec work. they kept negotiating with me until they found someone to ape my style on the cheap.

@erok i'm pretty sure these fall under "competitions" and not "spec work". in my mind spec work comes with promises (i.e. lies) of later pay. good competitions are very up front and transparent about how they work, and i feel like thats how both of these are being run.

@cburch - what's your website url? I'm interested in checking out your work. The only thing I've seen of yours was the bike-pgh poster - I thought that was really well done.

Yes, there's always a benefit to being a pro. But setting rules that give them additional benefits doesn't seem fair to me.

Somebody could do spec work 100 times and never get selected.

If the guy doing spec work is good, he should get hired some of the time. If he doesn't, maybe he's not very good, or his prices are out of line.

It's interesting you reference movie studios as an example, because I'm sure they don't do spec work. Their artists get paid.

I think it's common practice in TV to write spec scripts, or for that matter, for screenwriters to write a script and hope somebody will buy it, but perhaps they always pay their visual artists.

Cburch, sorry to hear about your experience. OK, if clients are regularly cheating like that, I can see how that would make a spec work system fail. Perhaps it could be fixed by contracts -- a client promises not to use spec work without hiring the artist who did it. Then you'd be protected just like you are if a non-spec client decides to use your work without paying your bill. But I see how that might be unworkable.

@steven the issue isn't when freelancers or agencies decide to take the burden of spec on themselves in hopes of gaining the rewards for their work. most of us do personal work and pro-bono stuff for our portfolios and marketing anyway. its when clients approach you asking for it. its like me going into a restaurant and asking to sample half the menu on the condition that if i like something enough i MIGHT buy i, as opposed to the restaurant offering free samples as a marketing plan.

@dan http://colinburch.com

@Steven: to your point, sure, I may get hundreds of estimates from plumbers, but in no case am I getting a free sample of the plumber's skills. I have to make a decision based on price & reputation before a drop of work is done.

Web and graphic designers are also facing competition from new software developments, low-priced templates, and very skilled overseas design teams.

Lots of people want or need design work but there is a pervasive culture of devaluing the work. "it will look good on your resume"..."it will help you land the real-paying gig later"...etc.

This is not true with services such as plumbing, hair cutting. Even horribly-paid restaurant, hospital, and child care workers are guaranteed a minimum wage for their hours and skills: not told "do x # of hours for free because it will help you get a really awesome hospitality job later."

@cburch: I feel your pain, There is at least one printer in town I will never patronize again after they gave vector files to a client, who then got cheaper, less experienced designers to alter the work for several more years' worth of use.

[edit for typos & to add] I agree that the AIGA's position could be a lot stronger. They mostly defend the value and discipline of design: they are not so much about the plight of the individual designer. The Graphic Artists's Guild is a bit stronger on that point, also the multi-disciplinary Freelancers Union of NYC.

the question is whether the cp contest or the cultural trust competition is spec work or not.

@erok: if I am reading the specs of the current Cultural District bike rack call: the applications process involves submitting existing examples of work.

If they were asking for free samples of what the bike racks would look like, then yes, it would be spec work, even if ultimately the selected designer got paid in the end.

Spec work is very very common and a normal expectation that people have of artists and designers. Part of it stems from the assumption that because we take pleasure in our creative work, that the joy is compensation in itself. Unfortunately, when the artist needs medical care or rent money, you can't write a check with that. It is possible from time to time to trade art and design work for professional services (law, dentistry, etc), if both parties are willing. The IRS still expects to tax barters.

Just because it is common, does not mean that it is ethical.

This happens in other industries too. A company will solicit RFPs from small firms for some vaguely defined project seeking consulting help. Consulting firms then develop a game-plan for how the project should be developed and managed. The company then uses the submitted RFPs to more succinctly define the project and use a large national firm which they intended to use all along. Or the same scenario only you see the company advertising to hire a project manager and do the work in-house using your game plan. There is a certain large university hospital that is good at doing this.

Thanks to for posting this, it's originally from a series of collages I did featuring cyclists from the early 1900's. http://etsy.me/Irta14

I didn't realize people would get into a discussion of spec work on here. I'm a graphic designer, I make my living off of clients hiring me, I do not support logo contests or submitting designs for a new business type of thing. At the same time, the CP contest seemed harmless and for me, how f*cking cool is it to have some artwork on a street box? Seriously! If you are an artist and don't agree with it, just don't submit your work.

I'm honored they picked me and I have been reading the paper for years, I did it because I felt like it. It's a design I had already worked on and it's my artwork. It's great to have people see it that don't know me. Over this one box I have already had people contact me for commission work. City Paper did reimburse me for my costs so I don't think it's a big deal. If they came to me and wanted me to do a free newspaper cover for them I would definitely say no to that.

@ mundania_horvath...

Great to see that you found this thread! And good to hear your viewpoint regarding submission of your design. Love your gravitar too.

And I take it back... I do care about more than the fact that it's a bike-themed design. I just like looking at the design too - It catches my attention.

Best luck

I may get hundreds of estimates from plumbers, but in no case am I getting a free sample of the plumber's skills. I have to make a decision based on price & reputation before a drop of work is done.

You may get the plumber's expertise for free though. He'll diagnose the problem and perhaps provide enough info in his estimate that you could replace the broken part yourself using directions from YouTube.

I agree it's not a perfect analogy, but it does include the plumber/designer taking the risk of describing a proposal in enough detail that the client could complete the job with no compensation for the plumber.

Seems like the key difference is that not too many homeowners would try to cheat the plumber like that, but apparently plenty of design clients would, and do.

"I agree it's not a perfect analogy, but it does include the plumber/designer taking the risk of describing a proposal in enough detail that the client could complete the job with no compensation for the plumber.

Seems like the key difference is that not too many homeowners would try to cheat the plumber like that, but apparently plenty of design clients would, and do."

On the contrary... I'm a contractor. Many, many homeowners are more than happy to take my description of the solution (which sometimes involves design work, but is usually a detailed written description of the work to be performed) and either shop it around or or pull elements out of it to do for themselves.

Now, in my opinion, the only problem with that is if the homeowner does it after the fact. If they tell you up-front that is their intention, then I don't do it at all, or at least not for free.

Whether a designer, a plumber or a contractor, we all have a right for our effort to be fairly compensated. And in my opinion, it is unethical for the client to leverage the submission of an applicant for the work to get a better rate or to take the product of that effort outright to use for themselves.

(While homeowners have the right to hire the lowest bid, I believe it is unethical and inappropriate for them to share another applicant's bid and let another applicant better it.)

@Marko82 +100500. I've seen it even in software development. Slightly different approach. A company opens a positions with a real good compensation, brings a lot people for job interview. Real long job interview with real problem to solve, gives a lot of time to look at the problem. Interviewee got something, and next interviewee is asked to look at whatever first did without mentioning who did it and is asked what (s)he can improve, van do differently and so on. And then the company closes position.

A handful of times I've been approached by a client to complete a really exciting, potentially lucrative project that someone else was working on before. Sometimes personalities clash or whatever, and designers get fired (clients get fired, too, believe me!). I placed a call to whomever was working on the project previously to see if the contract was still open. In EVERY case, the previous designer was extremely grateful for the call. Sometimes it was just a clash in working styles but the contract had been honored (smart designers and clients have an agreement in advance for how compensation will be adjusted if the project fails for any reason). In a few cases I discovered that the earlier designer was owed thousands of dollars and that the client was circulating unpaid for sketches without permission in order to solicit another lowball bid.

Fortunately, the vast majority of people I've worked with are not so exploitative.

I think it would be an interesting experiment to go to a hair salon, get free advice on styles, then go home and do the haircut oneself using youtube videos.

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

Wow, sounds like there are a lot of unscrupulous folks out there. Sad.

"Sometimes you get what you pay for."

Always.

@colin

I finally got some time to check out your portfolio... super-nice stuff. I'm impressed. I've never seen the "expanded/pre-expanded" type of ads before - very cool.

Illustrations that kick ass too.

Screw the spec-work-requesters, regardless of the industry.

Thanks Dan. I'm freelancing full time right now so um, cough cough?

We don't use much freelance, but I won't forget when the time comes.

Check things out in a local bike store.

Then go order it on the internet.

Everywhere you go, there's someone that wants to cheat.