BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Isnt that private property owned by the railroad?

So my question is, who (what organization?) is spearheading this section of the trail?

I don't believe there is any current effort other than wishful thinking at this point. There was talk of development happening on that land but I haven't heard anything about it lately.

Take a canoe.

@pierce, start taking a pannier full of gravel with you every morning. You could probably make about a six inches of progress on your home-built trail every day. So you will probably complete your trail a year or two ahead of any official trail. /sarcasm. My guess is that nothing will happen along this section until whatever development plans for the site are finalized. Too bad since this would connect quite a few communities.

Friends of the Riverfront is working on making an actual trail. See http://www.friendsoftheriverfront.org/files/trail_status.html#carriefurnace.

I think Marko's probably on the money If I empty my shoes out after riding through that section of the trail, I could probably get a decent amount of gravel just from that. It's a mix between muddy and gravel, so after going through the muddy, it picks up the gravel and throws it around The development site is pretty small compared to the length of the overall trail. If you've been through there, that's only up to the Carrie Furnace, which is semi-paved, and then the rest of it is where all the trouble is at

The proposed FOTR trail would run all the way from Duck Hollow to Talbot Ave in Braddock, as the engineering drawings show. I think it would be a great thing, especially for Braddock. But I don't know how "real" it is. BTW Friends of the Riverfront is looking for feedback on this and their other planned trails. There's an online survey at http://www.friendsoftheriverfront.org/misc_docs/Feasibility%20Study%20Survey.pdf. They also list their other contact info: Fax: 412.488.7716 Mail: Friends of the Riverfront, 33 Terminal Way, Pittsburgh, PA 15219

Carrie Furnace Trail is probably a better name for this concept. I've kind of adopted this strip of land between Duck Hollow and Carrie Furnace as a personal project, in recent years. This area has been, practically speaking, a no-man's land for decades, where fishermen would fish on evenings and weekends, sometimes people would camp overnight, and people would walk their dogs and occasionally people would hunt. Access on foot is typically by foot from the Duck Hollow parking lot (bottom of Old Brown's Hill Rd) or by walking down the hill from Les Getz Memorial Park in Swissvale, and crossing the RR tracks, or from W Braddock Ave under the Rankin Bridge, in Rankin. Carrie Furnace was shut down in the 80s, so industrial activity there ceased decades ago. Metal scavengers have unfortunately hauled off lots of metal from the remaining Carrie Furnace buildings, and graffiti artists have unfortunately tagged a number of those structures, also. Very unfortunately, because police rarely came down here, for decades, unscrupulous contractors were using the CSX service road and this area as a dumping ground for years. If you went down here a few years ago you could have seen hundreds of tires, refrigerators, sofas, car bodies, steel drums, shingles, broken pianos. There was a massive cleanup effort by Allegheny Cleanways' Dumpbusters group, that I helped with, that made multiple dumptruck trips and removed tons of debris. The area is much cleaner, since those cleanups! Legally, the land along the RR tracks (I'm not sure exactly how wide a strip) belongs to CSX railroad, as that's their RR track. Few trains run along those tracks. Some of the few that I know of are a morning Amtrak from Pittsburgh to DC and a late evening return Amtrak. CSX put up a gate to block cars & trucks from using this service road, earlier this year, but it would appear that some angry fishermen did battle with the metal gate, because it is now broken and open. I saw a Pittsburgh cop car patrol this service road once, earlier this year - a welcome improvement! The route that Pierce wrote about was presumably this dirt CSX service road. Yes, it gets bad puddles much of the year. Part of the land down there is Pittsburgh, part is Swissvale, and part is Rankin. The Carrie Furnace site is managed by Allegheny County's Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA), to the best of my knowledge. Rivers of Steel bought what's left of Carrie Furnace, and is working with the National Park service to have it designated as a National Historic Site. Their challenge is to keep the scavengers out to avoid further damage to the structure while holding occasional tours and keeping visitors to the site safe, while raising money to have the remaining furnaces opened someday to visitors on a more regular basis. I expect that will take decades. Meanwhile, the URA is working towards redeveloping the remainder of the Carrie Furnace site for industry or housing. I don't know their plans, other than: The ground was leveled a few years ago and pits were filled in, to facilitate future development. The long curved ramp at the northeast end of the Rankin Hot Metal Bridge was torn down this year. Car access to this flatland is currently very limited (since this sliver of land is sandwiched between river on one side and RR tracks on the other). Note that the CSX bridge just downstream of Carrie Furnace gets heavy freight traffic, unlike the other CSX tracks near Duck Hollow, that I was speaking of earlier. Consequently, a high priority for the URA / developers is to create some car/truck access. Their plan, I believe, is to extend Kenmawr Ave in Rankin down the hill across the RR tracks on a new bridge (construction to begin this year?) and also to refurbish the Rankin Hot Metal Bridge (the first bridge downstream of the Rankin (car) bridge, currently closed) for car, truck, bicycle, and pedestrian use. Meanwhile, the Mon-Fayette Expressway (remember that!?) is lurking in the shadows. That project threatened to rip through Braddock and Rankin and be built on pedestals above the hillside near Duck Hollow, in an attempt to connect the Mon Valley with 376 at Bates St. A huge waste of taxpayer money, if you ask me, and I hope that proposal continues to die. If it were built where the developers would like to put it, it would rip right through this area. I'm interested in hiking and biking. I helped clear a trail down close to the river from Duck Hollow toward Carrie Furnace. It becomes overgrown with knotweed during the summer and it's within a few feet of the river level so it gets flooded several times per year, unfortunately. I call it the Flotsam Trail, because of the chunks of foam and plastic bottles that can often be found along it. When the knotweed has been cut back, it's fun as a hiking trail or a mountain bike trail. I wouldn't recommend it for commuting. I'm also working with the Steel Valley Trail Council (SVTC), the trail group responsible for current and future bike/pedestrian trails along the Mon between the Pittsburgh city line and Clairton, on both sides of the river. SVTC manages the GAP trail in the Sandcastle / Homestead / Kennywood areas, among others. And also involved with Friends of the Riverfront (FOR), the trail group within the city of Pittsburgh, that currently manages the Duck Hollow Trail, plus the Hazelwood Trail. Tom Baxter and others in FOR (and I!) want to extend the Duck Hollow Trail upstream past Carrie Furnace to Rankin and Braddock. He's had plans drawn up. He plans to call it the Carrie Furnace Trail, tentatively. He plans to build it up on the shelf adjacent to the CSX service road. Less scenic than the location of the Flotsam Trail, below it, but this way it would be out of the flood zone. It would be a paved trail. I would love for that trail to be built tomorrow but things are currently hung up due to Allegheny County's plans with Carrie Furnace redevelopment and Rivers of Steel's concerns about further scavenging at Carrie Furnace. At the moment, my sense is that ROS is blocking trail planning in this area. I would love for ROS to start seeing cyclists as potential protectors of / eyeballs on Carrie Furnace and not as potential scavengers. My dream is bike trails on both sides of the Mon continuous upstream to Braddock, at least, and good bicycle connections at the Glenwood Bridge, Rankin Hot Metal Bridge, and Rankin Bridge. see map: http://tinyurl.com/cch2ldz If you're interested in lobbying to get these trails made then speak to me or please join the Steel Valley Trail Council!

paulheckbert wrote:Legally, the land along the RR tracks (I’m not sure exactly how wide a strip) belongs to CSX railroad, as that’s their RR track. Few trains run along those tracks. Some of the few that I know of are a morning Amtrak from Pittsburgh to DC and a late evening return Amtrak.

I've asked around at work and I have been told that those RR belongs to CSX but CSX does not want them. It would gladly sell them long time ago but there is a government mandate that CSX should keep RR alive for Amtrak usage (and the cannot sell them to Amtrak -- the last one would not be capable to support them). So don't expect CSX doing something above absolute minimum to support them and infrastructure around.

It's been discussed at length but it's worth mentioning again here, the value of a safe way onto the western terminus of the Duck Hollow trail. There's really not much use to the rest of this plan until that is done. What is the status of the plateau between the 9 mile run trail and the Mon (directly east of the duck hollow neighborhood)? An alternative route might be a legal connection through that area into Swissvale instead of having to go up Commercial St. Once in Swissvale, I've found it a pretty low-key and pleasant ride to get to the Rankin Bridge.

I would love to see this happen. In fact, I'd like to see someone try this now: Start three people at 6:45 a.m. at the corner of Electric Avenue and Dynamo Way in East Pittsburgh, and see who can get downtown fastest, say the front door of the library on Smithfield St. One driving, one by bus, one by bicycle. Keep me on any mailing lists. I'm not sure how much help I can be from up north, but it's the sort of thing I want to see happen. And, like you, I do *not* want to the the MFSoB built.

From FoTRF: "Hi Pierce, This section of planned trail is part of a three part process to to connect the Eliza Furnace segment and the City of Pittsburgh to the Duck Hollow segment via Hazelwood (in 2 parts) and then on through the Carrie Furnace to Braddock. The first segment of this planned trail in Hazelwood is currently under construction during the initial redevelopment of the ALMONO property. Once this portion is complete and funding is in place to move forward, the other segments will proceed. There is no estimated date of completion on this project at this time, but I anticipate it will be at least several years. There are also other segments of planned trail along both sides of all three rivers. Sarah Carr Program Manager Friends of the Riverfront, Inc."

If Friends of the Riverfront is waiting on ALMONO, it sounds like it is going to take FOREVER. What's the ETA on ALMONO? It's also kind of annoying because I don't even consider that part of the trail the same segment. I can get up to Squirrel Hill/East Liberty/East End from Nine Mile Run so I'd rarely ever use the Duck Hollow/Hazelwood portion of the trail

Regarding a trail network connection to Braddock, I think there is one that's pretty easy to develop, rather inexpensive - but it's on the other side of the river from what yinz have been discussing. Connect the GAP Trail from the west end of the overpass bridge, using something like the existing unauthorized footpath, to the sidewalk on the southeast-side of the Rankin bridge. (iow, connect the red dots using a new Braddock Trail Connector. With this connection, people from downtown, SouthSide, Homestead and McKeesport would be able to ride a trail and the bridge sidewalk into Braddock Avenue. This would also provide easy access for people who work along Second Ave (ie Union Switch & Signal, etc) to take the Hot Metal Bridge, Baldwin Trail, and the Braddock Trail Connector. Then more people could ride and eat at the Braddock Community Cafe, which is like my fave bike - breakfast destination evah. Elevator pitch line: There is no other single bike infrastructure investment that would connect Braddock to so many communities, because (1) connecting to the GAP connects to a trail network and (2) there's no dependency on other projects like ALOMONO completion. Just sayin.

The main problem with that is that it doesn't alleviate my own personal travel problems Going over the Rankin Bridge and along 837 until the Waterfront isn't an issue for me, although I could see it being one for people who haven't ridden 885 for the last five years I'm hoping they'll convert the Carrie Furnace Hot Metal Bridge for the same purpose, which would be a lot nicer than having to deal with the Rankin bridge, which is annoying from both ends in a couple of ways

Pierce wrote:I’m hoping they’ll convert the Carrie Furnace Hot Metal Bridge for the same purpose,

Yes, I understand. Just guessing but that's got to be a few years from now.

Thank you Paul for the marvelously detailed update on the Carrie Furnace connector! I don't go that way too often but I did manage a little while ago. Some (personal) comments about what's there (travelling from Duck Hollow): 1) The ballast along the path along the CSX(?) track has settled in very nicely and the ride is reasonably smooth. 2) Once you get into the wooded area things get worse. I don't remember the (water) holes being that wide and deep. Their smooth shapes makes them somehow look like craters from an explosion... I didn't check this out, but maybe a bit of spade work would solve the drainage problem. 3) I'm sure this got mentioned but there's a very nice road running between the railroads. Cement with little deterioration. This is a natural stretch for a bike trail. A real pleasure after that previous stretch. 4) I guess I'm not surprised that the gate was trashed. On the other hand from a biker's perspective this was not major issue. A bit further back the fence was low enough to step over and hoist your bike. 5) I'm not that sure about a path straight up to Kenmawr. That looked pretty steep. But it would be nice. Apart from the bridge it would connect to Rankin Blvd, on to Swissvale and into the city's bike system. (And Rankin Blvd is a good street to catch some gospel singing on Sunday mornings.) 6) Refurbing the hot-metal bridge would be beyond awesome. Anything to avoid that stretch of 837. The next frontier: Braddock to McKeesport.

andyc wrote:What is the status of the plateau between the 9 mile run trail and the Mon (directly east of the duck hollow neighborhood)? An alternative route might be a legal connection through that area into Swissvale instead of having to go up Commercial St.

This is part of Pittsburgh, as is the Swisshelm Park neighborhood (see map https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Swisshelm+Park,+Pittsburgh,+PA&hl=en&ll=40.418005,-79.902792&spn=0.0198,0.037036&sll=40.955011,-77.607422&sspn=5.293112,3.900146&oq=swisshelm&t=m&hnear=Swisshelm+Park,+Pittsburgh,+Allegheny,+Pennsylvania&z=15) and I understand that the long range plan for the Summerset development is to build another "slag heap village" if you will, on the Swisshelm Park side of Nine Mile Run, with a new bridge and road between them, someday. I found a map of one of their proposals here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/pittsburgh/1375275-summerset-beginning-phase.html For now, here is an annotated aerial photo that shows some of the trails (mostly hiking / mountain bike) on and near those slag heaps. If you explore that area, you'll run into: raspberry bushes, deer, and dirt bikers.

BTW, I'm leading a hike with Nine Mile Run Watershed Association in this area: Saturday, November 2, 2013 9am - 12pm Meet at the Duck Hollow parking lot along the Mon at the bottom of Old Browns Hill Road Join NMRWA & Edgewood resident Paul Heckbert for a hike through the woods in Duck Hollow & Swisshelm Park, around where Nine Mile Run flows into the Monongahela River. Paul will take us on some little known trails, but be aware that some parts of this hike are rigorous & boots are recommended. The plan is to first hike along the Mon upstream following the Flotsam Trail as much as possible until we're fairly close to Carrie Furnace, then return to the Duck Hollow parking lot, after which we'll hike up the ridge of Swisshelm Park for nice views of the Mon and Homestead, before descending back to the starting point. Please register for the hike with Sara Powell sarap@ninemilerun.org in advance. Hike is free.

Here are maps of most of the trails, roads, and railroads in the Duck Hollow / Carrie Furnace area: Version 1: with Google Maps http://tinyurl.com/dnmsyn Version 2: with LIDAR hillshade data from http://www.pasda.psu.edu/: Zoomable, full resolution version here: https://picasaweb.google.com/111415749895648787719/SteelValleyTrailNorthBank#5922566116710338258

Allegheny Cleanways is hosting a clean up this Friday September 14th, 2013 9:00 AM through 12:00 PM 115 W I am a vollunteer with them often , Check them out on line http://www.alleghenycleanways.org

Pierce wrote:If Friends of the Riverfront is waiting on ALMONO, it sounds like it is going to take FOREVER.

Regarding the goals of trails on the right bank of the Mon from Braddock all the way past Carrie Furnace, Duck Hollow continuing past the Glenwood Bridge, through Hazelwood, connecting to the Jail Trail, and better bike connections across the Glenwood Bridge and Rankin Hot Metal Bridge, my synopsis of the players and my sense of their attitudes: Friends of the Riverfront: favors it, has spent some money years ago getting a map made, but has not put much effort behind it in recent years. Their interest mostly ends at the Pittsburgh city line (just downstream of Carrie Furnace). Their energies have been elsewhere (Sandcastle, Pittsburgh-to-Erie connection). Tom Baxter is an optimist, so if he says "2 years", I'd multiply by 5. Steel Valley Trail Council: has been focused on Sandcastle and the GAP trail (left bank). Only a couple of SVTC people (me and Lois Liberman) have put much time into these right bank issues. SVTC's domain is trails along the Mon (both banks) between Glenwood Bridge and Clairton. City of Pittsburgh: doing nothing. Allegheny County: doing nothing, although there are some good pro-trail people in there, e.g. Dave Wright. At the Urban Redevelopment Authority, it seems that their priority is attracting developers to the Carrie Furnace site and my impression is that they want developer first, trail later. Getting bridges over RR tracks and over the Mon built to allow new industry into the Carrie Furnace site is a higher priority to them than building trails. They do not hold public meetings, that I know of. Rivers of Steel: They own Carrie Furnace. Their goal is historic preservation. Their first priority is protecting Carrie Furnace from scavengers and they currently fear that a bike trail could bring in scavengers. They don't want a bike trail past Carrie Furnace to open until Carrie Furnace is secured (whatever that means). They do tours of Carrie Furnace occasionally. Go on one. ALMONO: they want the Hazelwood brownfields to be a mix of industry and housing, with bike trails. They're coordinating with FOR on the Hazelwood Trail; they're currently doing construction at the north end of this property(?) so that's why part of the Hazelwood trail got closed last month. They do not want to create another mall of big box stores and huge parking lots. They see the housing part of the ALMONO site as young people who might be students or staff at Pitt and CMU, for example. They're trying very hard to learn the lessons of the Waterfront and mesh their new developments into the existing Hazelwood community, to strengthen Hazelwood rather than suck vitality out of it. They're good people; they're on our side. They hold public meetings. Go to them. CSX railroad: they want to keep doing what they're doing and bike trails are just an annoyance and a liability. They own most of the land in the south Hazelwood / Glenwood area that would be critical for a good connection between an extended Hazelwood trail, the Glenwood Bridge, and the Duck Hollow Trail. What Mikhail said about CSX not wanting the tracks through Duck Hollow is interesting. I guess that would explain why they didn't repair the gate that got broken on their service road. The boroughs of Swissvale, Rankin, and Braddock: I imagine there are people in those boroughs that would be quite supportive of the kind of trail network I favor, but I'm not in contact with them, currently. I'd love to hear from them. Contact me if you are one of them, please. So I think the current bottlenecks are: in south Hazelwood: CSX. in the Carrie Furnace area: the county, and Rivers of Steel.

Vannevar wrote:...on the other side of the river ... connect the GAP Trail from the west end of the overpass bridge [Whitaker bridge], using something like the existing unauthorized footpath, to the sidewalk on the southeast-side of the Rankin bridge.

Yes, we should do that! That's a great proposal to make with the Steel Valley Trail Council. They'd need to buy the strip of land, or an easement to it, and build the trail. It looks quite do-able physically (I cleared the knotweed along that path a few years ago, but naturally it grew back. I have that connection marked on this map: http://tinyurl.com/dnmsyn). Who knows if the property owners would be agreeable, however.

Thank you, Paul, I hope to make that proposal. I checked that link, awesome map. Do you think Roy might know who owns that property? Thanks again, V.

The gate that got rammed over is by Nine Mile Run, not by Duck Hollow. Well, it's not the gate, but the bollard that the gate would connect to On somewhat related note, the paint on the right side gate at the new Keystone metal area is already starting to chip If that's really RoS's position, it doesn't make much sense Cyclists aren't going to be scraping, and the more people through there, the less likely somebody is going to be able to get out of there with a truck unnoticed. Also, if the area had more bollards, which trails normally do, driving around there would be harder Maybe I'll join up with the SVTC and add to the list of people that want action on the right side

Reminder, if you're interested in trails for hiking or mountain biking in the Duck Hollow / Carrie Furnace Trail / Swisshelm Park area, come out tomorrow for a hike I'm leading: Saturday, November 2, 2013 9am – 12pm Meet at the Duck Hollow parking lot along the Mon at the bottom of Old Browns Hill Road Join NMRWA & Edgewood resident Paul Heckbert for a hike through the woods in Duck Hollow & Swisshelm Park, around where Nine Mile Run flows into the Monongahela River. Paul will take us on some little known trails, but be aware that some parts of this hike are rigorous & boots are recommended. The plan is to first hike along the Mon upstream following the Flotsam Trail as much as possible until we’re fairly close to Carrie Furnace, then return to the Duck Hollow parking lot, after which we’ll hike up the ridge of Swisshelm Park for nice views of the Mon and Homestead, before descending back to the starting point. Please register for the hike with Sara Powell sarap@ninemilerun.org in advance. Hike is free.

Vannevar wrote:Do you think Roy might know who owns that property?

I don't know Roy, but I do know AC's Real Estate search site. Working upstream from the bridge the property owners between the railroad and 837 appear to be - 0237-A-00075, Whitaker Schools, about 11K sq ft of trees (?!?) - 0237-A-00080, AC redevelopment auth, 40K sq ft - 0237-A-00100, Cornerstone Power LLC*, 3.86 ac - 0237-A-00175, owned by United States Steel, is only 16,814 sq ft but includes a long narrow corridor extending from River Ave (837) almost directly to the point where the trail crosses the railroad. Nearby are also - 0237-E-00120, USX, another 8K sq ft abutting Regional Trail Corp property - 0237-E-00110, USX, 6K sq ft. Here's where I suspect the coordinates don't quite line up with their aerial photo, or else USX owns a small chunk of someone's used car lot, scrapyard, or whatever that is. (the neighboring lot belongs to a private individual, but that individual appears to be dead...) * near as i can tell, a developer of solar-power plants, though what they'd do with less than four acres of wooded hillside I've no idea.

That area might actually get developed sooner than later; the past week they've had dump trucks streaming in and out of there non-stop I don't know if they're taking fill or dropping it off

@ Buffalo Buffalo: If the aerial photos don't line up with the records then the property could be leased. They may sign deals to lease a small parcel like that for loooong periods of time.

no, this is ownership records. the county RE website has been updated recently to use ESRI aerial photos as the backdrop to the plat maps, but they don't always line up precisely, so, for example, the roadway may be marked a few feet off to one side of the pavement in the photo.