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Canton is the steepest at 37%. But short.

Hardest is always kicked around. Suffolk is considered about the worst. After that it's hard to say.

Use your Google.

Tried google, did not provide the information I was looking for. Thanks.

I rode the first six 2 weekends ago, and have some data... they all sucked. Of them, Logan was the worst due to descending traffic, surface condition, and grade at the top. Ravine was pretty difficult before flatting out for a second 1/2 the way up. Berryhill is a wall. Short-ish but around 28% at the bottom. Rialto is hard but over quickly.

Center is about .8 mi, Ravine .8 mi, Berryhill .7mi, High/Seavey .9 mi, Logan .5 mi, Rialto .2 mi. Of the first 6, everything is over 23% at some point, some push 30% in spots.

This old thread has some additional info... wondering if @Mark has those old db records.

Nice. This is helpful info. Do you have a max grade on those hills? Maybe from the Garmin Training Center application? Thx.

My theory is if you can climb Barry-Holt-Elanor on the South Side without wimping out and dodging into one of the driveways/side streets going up Elanor, you can make all of them.

I find that what I see on my device while riding never matches up with what GTC reports (Ascent on Mac is much more robust than GTC for reporting, but still doesn't show short steep segments of 50 ft or so... probably because I have the garmin set up to save space). On short hills like Rialto, my track underestimates the grade by 7% or so (tracked at 17% but surveyed by the city at 24). Generally, anything over 25% I'm too tunnel-visioned to see what the device is reporting. There's plenty over 25% on the route going by my criteria.

In any case, I can assure you that legs are going to help you get over the DD more than any amount of data possibly can

Scouting ride Sunday am? I'm planning to hit 7 to 11 starting around 9 am.

Would go w you, but can't do Sunday am as I'm working. I think I'm interested to know just for psychology's sake, and to be able to have a better idea if I should conserve or hammer up some of these hills. When I went up Suffolk, I just went at a slow steady pace, and made it straight up without slaloming, but yesterday hammered up flower and underestimated tesla and ran out of gas about 3/4 of the way up, thinking no way I could do that at the end of 50 mi and hill 13. Plus, it's nice to have this info for planning recreational rides. I'm not looking at any device either when climbing a hill like that. I think it takes legs, also lungs, heart, arms, core, and light weight! Thx again for your help. Incidentally, I did reexplore google, and found some wattage and distance numbers, but I think they are somewhat skewed by effort.

If you want a nice elevation profile to play with, map it on ridewithgps.com.

My opinion: Barry-Holt-Eleanor and Suffolk-Hazelton-Burgess are the worst, with Logan not far behind. Welsh is the most pointless (let's go up a stupid-steep alley and turn around at the top...WTF?), but, like Rialto and Berryhill, really isn't that big of a deal.

For some reason, Ravine kicks my butt every time, even more than one would expect.

And I still haven't conquered Canton.

Completely agree with Dan's assessment. Ravine is really long with the steepest bit at the end.

Millvale has some nice hills that are close together. If you want to mess around and do a figure 8 go up Hoffman, down Geyer, up Peoples, down Geyer, then Hoffman… It’s around 6 miles. You can also throw Logan in instead of Hoffman. Logan is short but you will have a problem keeping the front wheel on the ground for the last 15 yards.

The only thing that keeps Berry-Holt-Eleanor from being my own personal worst is that fact the steep bit is at the end, and you get a bit of a reprieve before the turn on Eleanor. Suffolk is in your face from the start.

Logan is always hard because you can't simply concentrate on turning over the pedals--you have to deal with traffic, too (and I've never done the hill without seeing at least one car).

Canton is steep, but short, so if you are:

1. Geared properly

2. Not riding a 'bent

3. Careful about your line

it's really not terrible. I find riding down it harder than going up

WPW scouting ride Sunday, Oct 1. Starting at 8am at the bike rental on Jail Trail, near 1st Ave and Grant St.

From the email: Now in its fourth year, the tradition of Wheelmen Dirty Dozen scouting rides continues. These rides are an opportunity to try one's hand at climbing the steeps in a supportive club environment, where the pace will be reasonable and the ribbing good-natured. That said, these are steep (no, really!) and extended climbs, and will require a good degree of fitness to complete. This is a no-drop ride, and the standard protocol of regrouping at the top of each climb applies. We will pause as appropriate at the beginning of each climb for discussion as needed. We're all adults; if anyone feels that they need to drop out of the ride, we'll make sure they get home, but the intent will be to continue the ride unless there is compelling reason to do otherwise. For this ride, we'll tackle the first 4 hills - (1) Center St (Aspinwall), (2) Ravine St (Sharpsburg), (3) Berry Hill (O'Hara), (4) High St (Etna). This is the first steeps ride of the fall.

Come on out.

Not going, but, do you mean Oct 10th?

I am sure Steevo will mock me from his Iphone but this is Sycamore

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/51339677

Interval 11 is Sycamore from Carson St to the finish. I came at it slightly differently than the race but same same. Also, for reference, that's about how fast you have to go to score points. 3:30 is my benchmark.

Also on that file is Bigelow St, a hidden gem of PGH climbing.

@edmonds59. My bad, Sunday, Oct. 3rd is what the email and the WPW site (http://www.wpwbikeclub.org/) says.

If you are in the West End take a ride up to the Overlook. Go via Chartiers av, Lorenz av, Lakewood st, Rue Grand Vue

I like to climb Bigelow. For reference, here's the blog I found on google with the power data: http://www.cadencecycling.com/training/blog/2008/12/power-numbers-from-dirty-dozen.aspx

According to him, max power on Sycamore was 745 watts, which is similar to your 667. I guess its relative, especially considering that those are his power numbers doing the DD hills back to back to back. . . If you guys doing these rides could post data here, specifically grade and length data, that would be great info, especially for putting together some decent climbing rides, outside of the DD. Wish my schedule didn't suck so back and I could make it to some of these scout rides, but honestly, I'm very intimidated. . .Dirty dozen. . .the only set of double-D's I *DON'T* like.

That blog article is really well done. Remember he's like 160ish and I'm 135ish though.

Anyone under 140 should be required to strap a cinder block on their back for the DD... level the field a bit. I'm 6' 175, and would basically have to starve myself to get to 160.

Why not just focus on bringing your watts up and not your weight down?

I need a smart training plan. I'm 42, and though I've been riding 2500 mi a year or so for the last 10 yrs, this is the first year I've played around with any sort of plan. I had a loose century event plan that I used to get over Marie Blanque / Soulor / Tourmalet in the Pyrenees in July, but it was just enough to survive the day. Definitely did not get my interval training right, nor did I do enough fast long group rides.

here she be: http://ography.org/sahcer/pghhills/

here she be: http://ography.org/sahcer/pghhills/

also! yay google: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~abm/pgh_hills.html

i have a hard time believing that logan and rialto are approx the same steepness... that list seems a bit off, or might use an average over a long distance

Thanks for the list Mark!

Question for Chris M. (or anyone): do you have any other times for the hills to be competitive in the DD? Not expecting to score any points but would like to know what to reach for. Thanks all!

Just saw the blog link from Scooby about hill times, good info. Thanks.

Does anyone know what time the WPW group started on Center in Aspinwall this am? I was there around 8:30 but guessing I missed the bunch by a few mins.

Also @mark: thx for the link to hills info. I'm thinking about putting something together with gps/gradient data in a map mashup.

Joe Valese weighs 185 and got 2nd one year. He once

tossed me to his friend like you would a bookbag.

The only hill I do regularly is hill # 2, sharps

hill. At the beginning of a 3 hour ride I do it in

4:20 - 4:25 at 380 - 400 watts. That is like 6.2

watts/k or so.

I have data files from the four years. You'd need a trial version of WKO+ (free) to view them though.

I don't know times for any other climbs. If you can do Sycamore in 3:30 you can score points just about anywhere else.

http://www.bikely.com/cuesheet/route/Dirty-Dozen

@Quizbot There are 5 for-money coaches in the PGH area. FWIW.

Here is some data I compiled from map elevation data. I don't know how accurate it its, but I think it's in the right ballpark. Of course, this doesn't account for the difficulty of varying grades. Logan is hard for a lot of people because it's steepest at the top and you need to keep some in reserve on the early slopes.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArQqLbLIOhxDdDdjWmhhMmlpVWpOSjZHYVQwNXhxcEE&hl=en

Coast/Canton=9.32% ?!

I think I would not put too much credence in these numbers.

What I'd like to see is a meter-by-meter profile of each hill, on a percent-grade scale.

@stu: I can get stats per second with my garmin but won't be compiling granular data till the 17th on DD hills. You'd think the city or state would already have this info on hand tho.

@quizbot check out the cmu link Mark provided in an earlier post to this thread. The Survey and Streets Divisions - which I'm almost certain don't exist anymore - of the city's public works department developed the information when analyzing snow routes in the 80s.

I wouldn't be that surprised if Coast/Canton (from Banksville Rd where Danny blows the whistle to the top fo Canton) is actually around 10% average. It's not very steep down at the bottom, and it levels out again before the left onto Canton.

Check your inputs Heffner. Assume Canton is like 1/3 of the total distance and it's 37% the rest of the course would have to be downhill. Even if Canton is 1/2 the math doesn't work.

No way is Canton 37% the whole way either. I'd be pretty surprised if it's much more than 100 ft vertical elevation gain from Banksville Rd. Maybe it's less than 0.2 miles. The battery in my PowerTap died halfway through last year, so I don't have a second source of info. Sounds like you do.

Like I said, map elevation data isn't that great. It's better for longer hills for sure. I don't know how it compares to the barometer data on a Garmin.

WPW scouting ride Saturday, Oct 9th, 8am from the bike rental store on the jail trail. Logan, Rialto, Suffolk-Hazelton-Burgess, Sycamore.

In case anybody is interested, Global Rides released the DVD of last year's race. Looks like fun! http://globalride.net/dirtydozen.html

Anyone doing these training rides have any data they want to share?

The other thing is any friendly routes for folks trying to do a training/scout ride solo or in a small group?