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Diesel Idling

Allegheny County and the state of PA both have laws against unnecessary idling of diesel vehicles for more than three minutes. Unnecessary engine idling is also something I feel strongly about, especially when it's diesel (particularly bad for local air).

So any ideas what a regular citizen could best do to try to get these laws enforced? Should I go ask the driver to cut his engine, or would that just result in an angry and unhelpful bus/truck driver? Does anyone know the best way for an ordinary citizen to report violators? 311? Police non-emergency numbers?


My initial thought is that a regular dude asking them to stop is going to make them think "Who does this guy think he is, asking me to cut my engine?" and that a cop or some official asking him to stop or he'll get a fine would likely be more effective and leave a more lasting impression.


Also I hope this is reasonably on-topic; I figured this was a good community of pollution-dislikers to ask about this.


alnilam
2009-11-04 15:15:41

I think about this every time I have to merge left going down Fifth Avenue near DeSoto Street because of a Transportation Solutions bus idling in the right lane. I want to start issuing "citizen's citations" for this and other infractions of things that annoy me.


ieverhart
2009-11-04 15:26:53

I think it varies with the situation. With transportation Solutions, I would consider calling UPMC and complaining.


For independent truck guys, use your judgement. I'm sure some of them would threaten to kick your butt for you. That might be fairly common. Others, particualrly might thinnk you sincerely and turn off their engines.


The guys who own trucks because they think their 'package' is too big for a car would be in the former.


Mick


mick
2009-11-04 15:32:11

I think the law is dumb, especially when it's enforced in cold weather. Diesel engines and their components need to be hot to work effectively, and that cant occur when you're turning the engine off and on constantly. It's a feel good law that's a weak band-aid.


If they want to reduce particulate emissions, then change the fuel type because regulating the idling doesn't help as much as we would like it to.


However, to report it you can call 911 and give them the location, description of the vehicle and the plate number. I've called 911 to report overweight vehicles traveling over bridges, and the dispatcher told me that I called the right number, so I guess your issue would be okay too.


sloaps
2009-11-04 15:45:51

More effective would be to impose the same particulate laws on commercial vehicles and trucks that are now imposed on passenger vehicles (think TDI). It is pretty insane imo that you cant sell a car that get 50 mpg in some states, but a bus or truck can belt our soot and fumes to no end.


netviln
2009-11-04 15:51:37

sloaps:

I've got to respectfully disagree. If 18 buses are idling outside of a school, that's a pretty serious toll on the health of all the kids' fresh, developing lungs, considering diesel emissions have been shown to be worse than cigarette smoke. That is true whether or not the idling means the engine will run better once the bus gets moving. This is more about local air quality than about regional or global problems, although I still feel that idling your engine doesn't exactly help the greenhouse gas emissions either. I have my doubts that the gain in efficiency from keeping the engine warmer offsets any more than 10 minutes of idling pollution, let alone the 30 or 60 minutes I've witnessed trucks and buses going for. But I can't prove that last bit.


Also, I said "respectfully disagree;" let's please not turn this into an internet fight ;)


alnilam
2009-11-04 16:19:46

this is an issue that Group Against Smog and Pollution (GASP) works on.


http://www.gasp-pgh.org/about-gasp/


they're an interesting group to me. mostly because of how long they've been doing stuff


erok
2009-11-04 16:26:55

test


erok
2009-11-04 16:30:20



erok
2009-11-04 17:15:54

I enjoy when the neighboring store has its deliveries made by a semi-trailer truck that parks on the sidewalk directly in front of my building and idles there for like half-an-hour. This is in a no-parking zone.


That can't be legal, can it?


alankhg
2009-11-04 18:36:27

def not. it's a huge problem in oakland, esp on forbes. those dudes will block a lane of traffic during rush hour. it really messes stuff up. i can't believe they let it go


erok
2009-11-04 19:10:55

So the GASP site erok linked to has this:

http://www.gasp-pgh.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/idling_ticket.pdf


Albeit a little corny, it does have the number to call specifically for the ACHD school bus ordinance.

I guess for trucks and stuff, maybe a police non-emergency number, or 311? I'd still feel strange calling 911 about that, though sloaps' bridge story is appreciated.


alan/erok: I think you can legally park somewhere otherwise illegal for >15 minutes if you are clearly actively loading or unloading, if I'm not mistaken, unless you're creating a particularly egregious blockage, which it sounds like those trucks are doing. I feel like if they got complaints they might start considering it an egregious blockage...one hopes.

Also putting trucks up on sidewalks is ridiculous. They're not meant to handle that kind of load, especially repeatedly.


alnilam
2009-11-04 20:43:07

clearly a passenger vehicle doesn't waste a lot of fuel to start up but what about a massive semi? Is it still less wasteful to kill the idle?


spakbros
2009-11-04 21:44:32

I just want to make clear for readers that this thread (for the most part) is in reference to commercial diesel vehicles.


As for passenger diesel vehicle emissions, I will reference a diesel enthusiast website :-)


http://www.tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/TDiFAQ-5.html#a


My diesel operated car is 10 years old and I get 50 mpg.


dmtroyer
2009-11-04 21:53:01

I think you can legally park somewhere otherwise illegal for >15 minutes if you are clearly actively loading or unloading


while that may be true (i can't say otherwise), i know it's not legal on forbes ave during the day. and it's really not legal to park on the sidewalk like i see the ups dude do almost every day in front of cvs. they even have a parking lot.


erok
2009-11-05 00:49:03

Dude my neighbors (this is in lawrenceville) have a

dog groomer that comes and washes their dog in its

truck while it sits and idles on diesel.

annoying.


steevo
2009-11-05 15:30:31

steevo, that seems like a money making opportunity that you're not taking advantage of: green dog grooming


erok
2009-11-05 16:59:16

erok: I like it.


Although since when did one need a diesel engine to wash a freaking dog?


alnilam
2009-11-05 18:22:46

Sounds like an opportunity for a nice big trike.. or a converted pedicab...


netviln
2009-11-05 18:35:19

pedal powered flowbee?


sloaps
2009-11-05 18:40:49

Back during the G-20, I saw this CNN satellite truck which must have been idling for hours while footage was being edited to produce this:



That black mark on the pavement (not the shadow) is where the tailpipe was pointed. I guess it's better that the carbon got stuck on the ground rather than going into the air, but it seemed pretty bogus to me.


ieverhart
2009-11-05 21:34:55

@spak - I heard on the "stuff you should know" podcast (http://www.howstuffworks.com/stuff-you-should-know-podcast.htm) on hyper-miling that a car idling for 7 seconds uses the amount of fuel that a car starting uses. Conclusion being that if you are going to idle for more than 7 seconds, you can save gas by turning off the engine. Not sure if this translates to diesel.


njhohman
2009-11-05 22:34:20

Are you sure the dog groomer and CNN truck weren't running to provide electricity to the equipment inside?


jkoutrouba
2009-11-06 01:10:59

I have found it odd too that Children's hospital has all those nice lights, all powered by a coal plant. This is good for kids? The place is 24hr daytime. Could idling laws be extended to buildings?


ncbt
2009-11-06 07:19:28

I'm idling right now.


timito
2009-11-06 09:10:35

NCBT: At least they're making use of their lighting all night (ostensibly). Worse is parking lots/garages that apparently need to be the brightest thing around even at 3 am. The VA hospital parking garage, for example, makes The Hill a freaking beacon every night. And they don't even use sodium-vapour lamps; no regard for the astronomical community at all!


alnilam
2009-11-06 17:17:48

+1 alnilam, someone else who cares about the night sky! (Can *you* see the Little Dipper?)


As to the idling truck, all that stuff ends up in the river at the first rain. You get your drinking water from *where*?


stuinmccandless
2009-11-07 01:08:02

These is because 30,000$+ anything is a target. Leave 20 gold bars there. You want it to be safe? LAZERS, can't get that? Over LIghted Parking decks...The MPG just got a lot lower.


ncbt
2009-11-07 08:07:16