BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I, too, smell some greenwashing here, primarily because the family-grown BBQ meat is likely being shipped via FedEx in styrofoam coolers by the ride sponsor Grow and Behold.

-see http://growandbehold.com/index.php?page=Shipping#containers

"Can I recycle my shipping container?

Polystyrene (Styrofoam) can be reused many times and can be recycled in some areas. You can also return your shipping container (in good condition) to us and we will reuse it. To find out where you can recycle #6 Polystyrene in your area visit Earth 911. To make arrangements to send your shipping container back for reuse e-mail us at info@.... "

Saleem's in the Strip District sells locally-sourced meat in minimal packaging, slaughtered according to Halal rules, which are very similar to Kosher rules. It's a Muslim shop but Jews often buy meat there, too, which I know because I have been asked a few times if I am Jewish by fellow (pun intended) patrons waiting in line.

In the grand scheme of things, though, this is definitely not as harmful as Monsanto or as duplicitous as Komen. I hope anyone whos mind is opened by the ride & bbq will start on a path of learning more about the larger impact of their diet & make better choices about what they eat & where they source it.

Considering this is all a Jewish thing, I suspect they are somehow in cahoots with Giant Eagle. They are jewish owned, like MOST all grocery stores, so there will no doubt be some financial gain somewhere. That is what this is probably all about to be honest. Just some back scratching stuff. Look into it. Madoff/Goldmann and the like are all around and we all end up paying for the mess they leave. It does get tiresome.

Good Grief, this does not seem at all Giant Eagle related to me or part of some kind of "Jewish Conspiracy." We're being hyper critical of its claims on sustainability. I think the ride's intentions are probably well placed.

Oy vey.

Wow. There's a lot of fail going on in this thread all around.

Whoa. Never thought I'd see that kind of garbage on this board.

hcurtis:

So now I know why there is a bicycle theft in some areas in PGF. It because "so there will no doubt be some financial gain somewhere".

this is a sinking ship

i bet they are conspiring with "the east liberty crowd"

stick to talking about bikes. you only seem like a bit of an asshole then.

Can we shut down this thread and try again? It started to get silly after the first post, then it just went all dark and stupid.

@jkp, we've covered quite a bit of this ground before, with better manners (mostly).

^ despite some strong differences of opinion in the thread @brian j linked to, it ultimately led to THE VIKING RIDE, which has happened for 2 years now.

Go team!

wow, usually I can find some shred of relevance or redeeming value to hcurtis' posts, but not this time.

Beyond the pale, dude.

But this appears to be one of those times when he drops one (or two) stinker(s) and leaves. We're likely safe for another few weeks to a month.

back on topic: I think it's awesome that they're volunteering with bikefest. And since there's people at all levels of educated about sustainability, I'm confident there are a lot of people they can connect with to bring further down the road. Some people, you confront them with lentils and they shut down. Confront them with BBQ, and they'll enter the discussion.

Everybody has to start somewhere.

^ +1

it has been interesting to see in the thread with feedback about PedalPittsburgh, that the changes made to reduce packaging & waste seem to have met some resistance.

somewhere on Hazon's pages they have a text about "reaching people where they're at"

I agree w @ejwme that everyone has to start somewhere--don't we all wish that the long standing habits of others could be turned around more quickly!

[edit] this thread has actually been making me think a lot about some of the negative comments about BikePgh's efforts to reduce packaging and waste at Pedal Pittsburgh.

sounds like at least one poster on here is a fan of end apathy. gross.

It's unfortunate that Hcurtis has had so many negative experiences with menorahties

I'm glad that kind of language isn't kosher here, but I'm still wary of a society that accepts animal use not only as morally acceptable, but also acceptable on a sustainable level, which it isn't

To that extent, it ties back into human morality. If we can feed waay more people on vegan diets and people are starving and resource competition is only going to increase in the future, are we not morally obligated to at least consider reducing our inefficient consumption of flesh and milk?

Blah blah blah blah blah

Pierce, no matter how sound your arguments and logic, if you can't get people to listen, they'll never consider any changes at all. People are most likely to listen to something that somewhat resembles their own views. Baby steps. Clearly their message is not for you, as you're farther down that road. But if they can get someone who is completely inattentive to their food sources to start to think about where their food comes from, beyond the grocery store, that's a start. There really are people out there who don't ever read labels, who don't understand how food goes from seed to grocery store and are perfectly comfortable with their current state of affairs. Simply getting those people to recognize their food comes from somewhere other than Aisles 2-16 is a feat.

Start by telling them that eating all the food they know and love - perhaps the only food they've ever eaten in their lives - makes them immoral people... That's not going to win any hearts or minds.

JZ - what?

Let's talk about vaccinations for kids.

"That's not going to win any hearts or minds."

I didn't say they are immoral people. If they lacked morals, whatever I said definitely wouldn't do any good.

This sounds obvious, but change requires a willingness to change. I.E. it's all well and good to be aware of moral issues, but if that isn't followed up with action, it's meaningless.

It also requires a willingness to investigate ones own beliefs, which is one skill our society is severely lacking in.

For example, I've talked with pretty much everybody on this board, and while we've pointed out some areas where veganism isn't morally desirable (from a vegan perspective) we've never fully explained why omnivorism is a morally desirable position.

Rather than discuss why we're eating meat or dairy, we've discussed why I'm not eating honey or what I do when I get ticks.

===========

To the extent that this ride promotes healthy/sustainable eating, I'm not sure where meat fits in. I don't think we can feed this country's population while striving to be in alignment with the values expressed on that website.

Sorry about my first post. I thought this Hazon was THIS Hazon.

I don't think they are connected, but nonetheless it is best to always look into things.

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=265792

@pierce: it doesn't even occur to most people that their diet might have any morality associated with it. to them, it's like throwing a ball up in the air and catching it. it is neither moral nor immoral, it is just something that happens. there is no reason to believe these people considered whether "meat fits in." they chose it because they thought it would appeal to their audience.

not every act by every human has to be about the morality of consuming animal products. sometimes it can be peripheral.

Meat, vegetables and fruit have been eaten by humans for thousands of years. There is nothing inherently “bad” with eating however you or your religion wants to. From an environmental perspective, I think eating something local is way more important that eating anything (meat, fruit, vegetable) that was shipped half way around the world no matter how organic, small-farm, etc. it happens to be grown/raised. With that said, I eat lots of stuff that isn’t local. But I buy from farmers markets, etc. as much as I can.

@Pierce: perhaps the (at least a?) problem you're encountering over and over again is that, for most people, their diet is no more a moral issue than their choice of toilet paper.

You cannot make a productive moral argument for a specific course of action or behavior with someone who does not share your morals.

[edited to add:] HV got there first, and I tend to agree with Marko.

@HiddenVariable

Per Hazon's website:

"Riding for a more ethical and sustainable meat industry, where workers and animals alike are treated humanely."

The issue is on their radar

@marko

Many things have been done for thousands of years. Many of those things aren't things we'd say are in line with our current sense of morality.

There are a decent amount of religious vegans who feel their faith supports their veganism. I know two Jewish people where that's the case. (One linked above) And I know you're only referring to eating nonhumans, as some religious sects eat other people. As far as I know, no worldwide religions punish people FOR NOT consuming animals.

I think I'm generally in agreement on the idea that local is better, to a certain extent

@reddan

I recognize the problem in that all people can see is the packaging and what's inside, similarly to toilet paper, iPhones, diamonds, etc, etc. I think Hazon and me are in agreement that we need to foster a greater understanding of what goes into the products we consume.

As for morals, I think we share the same. I like compassion, justice, equality, understanding. I'm against torturing animals. I think everybody agrees with those morals. All I'm trying to do is illuminate how our actions aren't always in line with the sense of morality we already have.

(If only Sarah Q could see the dead robo-horses I'm beating now )

I like bikes.

yes, but the difference is, Hazon believes that it is possible to have a meat industry that is ethical, and that animals slaughtered for food can be treated humanely. Correct me if I'm wrong Pierce, but I believe you do not believe there is a way to ethically process animals for food, and that killing any animal for food is inhumane no matter how it was treated in life?

Religions don't necessarily punish people for not consuming animals on paper, but it is ostracized in many cultures. I'm sure you've experienced your fair share - even I have, while I wasn't even a vegan!

As to "our current sense of morality"... that's not a uniform thing either. Some people believe that slavery is perfectly moral, and it still exists - I'm not talking metaphorical slavery, but out right ownership of humans by other humans. Some people believe it's a moral duty to kill a woman who's been raped. Some people believe it's a moral duty to have as many children as possible. Others believe the opposite on all accounts.

Humans are a wildly varied species, and there's over 7 billion of us. Pick an idea, any idea, and chances are there's at least one handful of people who believe it vehemently, one handful of people who disbelieve it vehemently, and one handful of people who have never given it a thought at all.

Maybe if you didn't hijack so many threads with the same proselytizing ad naseum people wouldn't be so annoyed. Evry time animals are mentioned its like a countdown to vegan town. You don't see me doing this every time someone mentions beer. We get it. We have all heard it from you a thousand times now. Give it a rest and try taking a less self righteous, more humble approach. You might very well find a more receptive audience.

I don't think that's entirely fair, cburch...

It's an important part of who he is, and informs a lot of his decisions, or at least that's what I see. Asking him to ignore it or keep it to himself seems harsh.

Also, people like me (and many others) keep the discussion going. I'm sorry for my part in aggravating anybody about that, but I find the discussion really interesting. This is supposed to be a biking related board, and generally is, but I find I also like to talk to the people on it about non-biking things.

Yinz guys are too interesting. Please be more boring if you really want to stay on topic.

(ok, I know it's just a meme I haven't seen before, but I gotta ask - what's inside the bacon narwhale? is the horn made of pepperjack? it looks delicious...)

HOW CAN YOU SAY YOU ARE AGAINST SLAVERY WHILE

ANIMALS ARE ENSLAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude 99% of the US population sees us as the

same, but you are so alienating that I

hesitate to even tell people that I am strict

vegetarian and for how long. I only brought

it up on this thread to give some

credence to my point.

Q: How do you know who the vegan is at a

party?

A: He tells you

waka waka It is funny because it is true!

Edit: non human animals

ejwme, those are some great examples of the lack of uniformity when people are confronted with the same information.

lou m, I think makes a great contribution to this thread as well. Sigh, I like bikes too, I think, but I haven't riden since March maybe.

but that's usually because s/he needs to know what's in the food so s/he can avoid it, since s/he's likely the only one. Replace "vegan" with "celiac" or "allergic" anywhere food is served, and it's the same joke, but not as funny. I've met Pierce IRL, and I wouldn't have known if I didn't know it from the board.

sigh. I give up.

I like bacon and bicycles.

@ejwme

Well I'd hope their religion wasn't ostracizing them. Is that too not indicative of a problem in society? Somebody is striving to bring about change to something they think is important and our response is ostracism.

Even little Lisa Simpson (a vegetarian) had to endure the mocking from the likes of Ralph and others, calling her a "lettuce head."

As for the other moral duties you mentioned, none of them are shared by the majority of our population. I think we can agree that the majority of our population isn't for abusing animals.

@steevo

I'm sorry for the confusion. I certainly don't benefit from that either. Countless prospective mates, that once glimmered in my eye, only to find out they were health people... It's no surprise to me that the most alienated people here are an ex-vegan, and two vegetarians.

Sorry for being so vocal about what's important to me... Perhaps I should focus more on my ardent support for RiMBOs. (Which for disclosure, very well may not be vegan, like most tires) Ah, but I don't want to upset the Vittoria crowd...

@cburch

As far as I know, your straightedge lifestyle isn't morally motivated. So I feel like maybe you'd feel less motivated to share and promote it? This is why you're more likely to call out racism and not the keg ride.

@Tabby

There's this ride coming into town to promote sustainability and healthy lifestyles, maybe you could jump back on the bicycling bandwagon by tagging along with them?

@pierce: even that most bleeding heart of the simpsons falls victim to idealism coming up short... in her moral quest to save the planet through recycling, she ends up (inadvertently) creating "lil lisa slurry".

Ugh -- haha -- reminds me a little bit of the Vivoluem project by the Yes Men. pranksters extraordnaire

My point is that if you are making the argument in order to change minds and bring people closer to your way of thinking you might want to consider that your approach is actively hampering you.

"Considering this is all a Jewish thing, I suspect they are somehow in cahoots with Giant Eagle. They are jewish owned, like MOST all grocery stores, so there will no doubt be some financial gain somewhere. That is what this is probably all about to be honest. Just some back scratching stuff. Look into it. Madoff/Goldmann and the like are all around and we all end up paying for the mess they leave. It does get tiresome."

hcurtis has been blocked from posting on here. i had no idea he was saying this shit. hopefully the ship can right itself now. you're all back in charge of policing yourselves again.

congratulations, i think you're the first non-spammer to be banned

"majority of our population isn't for abusing animals"

Try to define what is abusing of animals and you will see that there is no unity.

"your straightedge lifestyle isn't morally motivated"

This is broad and false statement.

every little act in a person life is morally motivated. All those "don't" and "do's" are direct implication of moral.

Yep. It certainly is. Glad someone else was able to point that out for me.

Mikhail, the definition I start with is "Would you feel comfortable with kicking a dog for pleasure?" Nobody I've spoken with has gone "Yeah, I'm cool with that..." The way we treat nonhumans is far worse than that.

As for your second point, it also doesn't recognize there is a scale of choices.

For example, I prefer linguine over spaghetti. Is that a moral choice? Can you understand why I don't jump in with my linguine views whenever discussions about pasta come up?

(Note: I'm not calling straightedge, which I know nothing about, equivalent to choices like those, but the point is, there's a scale.) As previously mentioned, cburch has no problem calling out racists, but is mute on alcohol consumption.

Likewise, because I see discrimination based on race similar to discrimination based on species (both morally irrelevant characteristics) I speak out on both of them.

Mikhail, the definition I start with is "Would you feel comfortable with kicking a dog for pleasure?" Nobody I've spoken with has gone "Yeah, I'm cool with that..." The way we treat nonhumans is far worse than that.

perhaps the more appropriate question would be "would you still have dogs as pets if you knew that some people who bred them kicked them for pleasure?"

and:

Likewise, because I see discrimination based on race similar to discrimination based on species (both morally irrelevant characteristics) I speak out on both of them.

it is clear to virtually no one that the quality of not being human is morally irrelevant.

Pierce you are changing the subject. I would not do it pleasure. I do kit dogs occasionally and fell comfortable. But question was about eating animal. I did kill animals for eating and feel comfortable and eat meat with pleasure. I consider it totally moral and normal. And I don' see it as abuse. I do not consider using hoarse to pull carts as abuse. And I see to have big dogs in apartments as abuse. I do see having Australian shepherds and giving a chance to dog to run at least 30-40 miles a day as abuse. Those dogs are bread to run if they are not running they have all sorts of problems.

linguine over spaghetti. It very well could be. My younger daughter is majoring in psychology. You would be amazed how many thing we do are connected. Even here some people could do choices based on how thing are produced. But your taste is a result of environment you have been grown within. So you probably don't see direct connection but there is indirect one 100%.

I don't have problem calling racists and be loud on alcohol consumption. The only problem would be that I don't think that alcohol consumption is bad as per se. I don't see alcohol as "all time total evil". And I don't drink. Even beer. And this is a difference in morals. Note, that from mathematical point of view two sets are equal if all members are matched. One member is different -> sets are different. And moral is set of different axioms. And you can use exactly same logic (and pure and/or math logic does not care what is behind variables, it's purpose to make a process right) and arrive to completely different conclusions if sets are different. And that is why is kind of useless idea to use logic to make foundation of your moral to look nice and sound. Even with scale -- it's your choice of scale and "weights of each gradation" in scale. It's not universal.

"Likewise, because I see discrimination based on race similar to discrimination based on species (both morally irrelevant characteristics) I speak out on both of them."

For your listening pleasure:

http://www.radiolab.org/2010/feb/19/kanzi/

HV Does it make difference if other people have different intent for a bread that I have know as pet (one instance of the bread)? For example, I know that relatives of my wife deep back in time were meant to be slaves. I could care less. And it's part of my morale.

Do I acknowledge that there is more one morale in the world. Yes, I do. Do I accept them all? No, I don't. Will I fight against people (and probably kill them) if they try to force morale that I don't accept? Yes without a doubt.

I believe it was Albert Camus who said (sorry red hem in Russian, so it word to word translation): "there are small differences sometimes but we are to die to keep those differences." I go along ith him.

note to self: do not make Mikhail too mad about anything

And I don' see it as abuse. I do not consider using hoarse to pull carts as abuse. And I see to have big dogs in apartments as abuse.

I've just been reading Temple Grandin's book "Animals Make Us Human" and she would probably agree with this. I'm inclined to agree in the case of some domesticated animals, but still thinking about it.

"To the extent that USDA standards don't mean shit, which they point out, theirs are less rigorous and have less definition. "But wait man! They said they had the strictest standards!"

Pierce, my room mate works for HillshireBrands (formerly SaraLee) as a meat-scientist and if you have any questions regarding the clarity of definitions, feel free to inbox me.

Anyways, I don't disagree with your positions; I was a vegetarian for many years and still limit what I eat. I do think that you'd make more of a dent in society focusing on positive economic aspects of meat consumption (i.e. it's really not sustainable, I'm not asking people to become vegans and/or vegetarians, but to simply cut back on consumption which is both healthier for the end consumer and better for the planet) as opposed to focusing on the normative arguments which encourage drastic change of lifestyle and come off as proselytization.

@Pierce - uhm thanks for the ride suggestion, but I can assure you that the reason I've been off the bike isn't because I was lacking a group sustainability ride to join.

@headloss: "meat scientist" Awesome job-title. I'd love to see his business card.

@Tabby - Come to Flock on the 17th!