BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Where the heck is Settlers Ridge?

http://www.cbldevelopment.com/settlersridge/

In Pittsburgh, PA, a.k.a. Robinson Township, next to the Barnes and Nobles that closed in Squirrel Hill...

Oh that abomination. I am not going anywhere near that horrid place.

I will be holding a "intro to riding your bike to settlers ridge" clinic at the REI on the southside.

It will discuss:

-Is it worth your life riding to a strip mall?

-If you rename an area does it make it fancier?

-Is it ironic to build an "outdoors" store in sprawl?

-How to ride west and avoid the whole area known as "robinson"

-Remember when Baldwin Rd had a big field next to it instead of "Freedom Road" or whatever the hell that is now?

Although "Settlers Ridge" and the whole robinson development is a model for everything wrong with sprawl, It would be really awesome if there was some more push to get some sort of access and pedal friendly path from the montour trail up to that area.

I know it was discussed in another thread and that apparently one of the developers or whatever ask "why would those people want to come up here?".

With the whole river trail system getting closer and closer to completion, It would become easier and easier for downtowners (east end and ss included) to take the trail system to cori then the montour to robinson. A long ride yes, but I think it would be nice.

Part of me says "yes, absolutely, build paths to Settlers' Ridge" and another, perhaps more realistic part of me say "no, this is in the middle of a suburban landscape that doesn't even have sidewalks. Why bother?"

It seems like fighting for bicycle access to this particular piece of suburban sprawl is nothing more than tilting at windmills....

Can't make mention of Settlers Ridge, specifically, but the Airport Corridor Transportation Association (ACTA) is working on better connections between the Montour Trail and Robinson Town Center and the Pointe at North Fayette.

I used to live in a house along Steubenville Pike directly above what is now the Settlers Ridge site. The site of the house is now a Dodge dealership. They actually started moving dirt up there around 1990, but were waiting for a (taxpayer-funded) Parkway West interchange. They only went forward with the strip mall when the interchange was approved. Similarly, The Pointe At North Fayette only exists because of the interchange built for it. This is how sprawl comes to be. Ultimately politicians are to blame for sprawl.

> "no, this is in the middle of a suburban

> landscape that doesn't even have sidewalks.

> Why bother?"

A few years ago, I was in Madison. My brother-in-law lived in a suburban housing project next to a shopping center not unlike the area around Robinson. The difference was that the roads had bike lanes and the shops and restaurants had bike racks. I doubt that they were part of the initial plan.

I believe that if the trail were extended to Robinson then more people would ride there in spite of there being no amenities waiting for them. That additional traffic would leverage developers to adapt. It may be only a bike rack here or there but it will be a start.

To be honest, isn't that the same story for all of Pittsburgh. For years we heard "the streets are too narrow", "The streets are too twisty", "there are too many hills", "Pittsburgh will never have those things." Well, we do have those things. We have bike lanes. We have bike racks. We have legislation that directly addresses biking concerns."

It happened because we bothered.

I predict that trails will reach to Robinson. There will be bike lanes. There will be bike racks. There will be sidewalks. It may take decades but, if we keep bothering, it will happen.

@Kordite, point taken. Perhaps I am being a bit short-sighted.

The city isn't necessarily a good comparison, though--despite the narrow streets and topography, it was built to accommodate something other than cars. Most of us in the city have sidewalks, and on city streets the speed limits aren't in excess of 40mph (though certainly sometimes people drive that way).

The suburbs of Denver are similar to what you found in Madison. I was staying in Broomfield this summer, and despite the often-high traffic volume roads, there were bike paths and lanes that gave safe access to all. The communities and business districts/strip malls were designed this way from the outset, however. The suburban housing plans actually had sidewalks, and people used them.

We think of Copenhagen as a cyclist's utopia but it took them 30 years to overcome the problems we are just now beginning to tackle. Undoing nearly a century of autodominionist culture will take time. We have to be in this for the long haul and take every incremental step we can. The first step is ignoring the people who say "it'll never happen."

I am fascinated by the fact that REI has decided to put 2 stores within such close proximity here in Pgh, they haven't done this anywhere else in the country. Sure we have a lot of outdoor activities around here, but we're not known for a super-active populace. The only theory I can come up with is, there must be a huge split between urbanites and exurbanites, so there are enough people in the city to feed the SSide store, and enough people from the burbs, Ohio and WV who would die before they would go to the SSide. It's a theory, but if true, a damn shame.

The tunnels and Greentree Hill are a huge turn-off for people going in either direction (and I suspect a bit more so for the people on the suburban side).

That said, I agree--I'm puzzled too. As others have pointed out, the linear distance between downtown and Robinson isn't really that far. But topography and civil engineering make it seem a whole lot further. I suspect that on a "normal" traffic day, it would take an additional 20-30 minutes to get from Robinson to the South Side.

location, location, location. There is now considerable traffic around robinson and moon townships. It's pretty silly to see gridlock out there in the mornings and evenings. Good thing they widened 22/30 out there to include longer stacking lanes, because I cant think of anything better to waste state and federal money on...

yeah, b-b-b-but ...there's a BRIDGE there, and a TUNNEL! I can't get my car to go through THEM to get to THAT store. I gotta have one out HERE!

Everyone knows that every third car heading inbound through the tunnels mysteriously disappears. That's why everyone slows down, right?

20-30 mins? No way. My wife works out that way. We both think 45.

I thought we didn't want people to drive any more than they have to...

I am fascinated by the fact that REI has decided to put 2 stores within such close proximity here in Pgh, they haven't done this anywhere else in the country. Sure we have a lot of outdoor activities around here, but we're not known for a super-active populace

There is a well known canard in the retail development community that Pittsburghers are geographically challanged. There are many who simply will not go somewhere if it is a place they are not comfortable driving to. Just two days ago a colleague of mine said she probably would never go the Waterfront in Homestead because "I know they had some problems down there." Please! We work downtown and I know they've had some problems in that part of town too. It's just that she lives in the South Hills, remembers when Homestead was a mill town, and isn't interested in going there. Old habits die hard. Retail location is all about access and parking whether we like it or not.

Anyway, REI showed a committment to the urban core when they put their first store at the Southside Works. But, they recognize that this region is a prime outdoor recreation market. (Ask, LL Bean why they are here. Why is there a Cabelas megastore not that far away.)

So I think they thought they could do even more business if they built a 2nd store out where people who dislike driving into the city could get to it.

So, I grew up in suburban Ohio, in a post-WWII tier of development, sort of where they invented sprawl. Ohio has a huge cycling population, second only to Cali I believe, thanks to the super-friendly terrain. That is where I became a bike lunatic these many decades ago (has everyone seen "Breaking Away"?, in Indiana). I spent my 20's living in dense Pgh city neighborhoods, loved it, kept riding. I now live in Robinson, possibly the worst cycling environment on earth, and I will continue to ride, to REI, Giant Eagle, into town, out into the country. I will not concede my right to riding to automobiles ANYWHERE. So I will probably ride over to this thing at REI, even though there will probably be very little new information for me, and I certainly don't need to buy any stuff, but just to show up and mark my territory, I want to be that little green shoot that forces it's way up through the asphalt.

I agree, sprawl and driving argument aside, it makes sense from a business perspective.

re: jeffinpgh, +1 on the geographically challenged, one aspect of Pgh's awesome neighborhoods also has a hang-up, there are pgh'ers from Bloomfield who have never been to, say, Beechview, or Troy Hill. You almost have to be not from around here to really get it.

I guess my gripe is more with the sprawl than

the actual building of the second store.

Patagonia only uses brown spaces. Pittsburgh has

A LOT of brown spaces. It just sucks to build right

next to a county park on decent space.

I often hear the city wanting to go "green" and not using your car to drive everywhere!! If we could build a trail that extends from the city to Robinson Township that would be terrific.I know a number of cyclists from both the city and the burbs that would commute by bike, instead of a car, if we make access easier and less dangerous by building trails.I'm one of those cyclists who work near Robinson Township and would cycle into work.

Hear, hear, Lenny! In the past I have gone to hearings to check out the city bike plans, and there is (or has been) no addressing of connections in and out of the city. Any comprehensive bike plan needs to be county-wide, and the city needs to demand such from the county.

By the way, I saw a serious commuter dude on Thursday morning, 11/12, on West Carson between McKees Rocks and the West End circle, headed into town, about 8:30 am. Anybody on this board?

@steevo I'm pretty much in agreement with you, but I don't want to hold REI responsible for that development out there. They did build their first store on a brownfield.

Settler's Ridge has been in the planning stages for quite a while. Whole Foods was rumored for a while. There's a Giant Eagele there and I think I saw a Home Depot that last time I was across the way on Ridge road on my bike. Those are the big draws.

So if you are REI and want a 2nd store in an area, do you go into a shopping center that's already under construction? Or do you say no because it's not on a brownfield?

Is that Robinson out there? I think you need to look to the township to ask why they are turning all their open space into parking and shopping lots.

Probably because they need more tax revenue to replace the stores that are now empty.

Undoing nearly a century of autodominionist culture will take time. We have to be in this for the long haul and take every incremental step we can. The first step is ignoring the people who say "it'll never happen."

very well said. we're often at meetings where we bring up an idea, and someone will say "Well, we can't do that because (fill in any number of lame excuses)", essentially meaning: end of conversation. those kinds of statements should be looked at as the beginning of a conversation.

Erok, Scott, Obviously this is the tech age and face to face stuff is old hat, but has bike-pgh ever entertained the idea of like monthly town hall style meetings to discuss problems areas and potential solutions?

entertained, yes. we've had occasional public meetings with the city, usually a couple a year.

the membership meeting that we just had was sort of a try-out of the concept. i been tossing around the idea of a green drinks type of thing, but with cycling/ped/transpo issues as the theme. with only three of us, that's not on the front burner of things to put together at the moment. any takers?

Yeah, I hear the breakout sessions went very well at the membership meeting and am sorry I couldnt come. Cant say I have time to be a lead on organizing this sort of thing but would be willing to help.

Undoing nearly a century of autodominionist culture will take time

It's why I keep hoping for $7 a gallon gasoline.

Oh, I'm torn. I heard beer, and I like the sound of that, but then I heard bikes, and bikes+beer=ow.

jeffinpgh, $7/gal would be nice for bikes, but, yow, the impact on our economy would be ugly ugly ugly. I can't really say that I am hoping for that.

I'd rather see the taxes/user fees rise to the point that they absorb all the externalities, and then let Adam Smith's dead hand do its thing.

the impact on our economy would be ugly ugly

@Lyle True that. I though about adding the caveat "It's why I keep hoping for $7 a gallon gas, providing we could survive the ensuing chaos."

The thing about Adam Smith's dead hand though, is that it's market forces that dictate. User Fees/Taxes can be repealed when the people who enacted them get voted out by angry tax payers. But gas prices pretty much follow clasic supply/demand cost rules (even if supply is artificially manipulated). Permanent high gas prices would effect more widespread change in car culture. Even at $4 a gallon..which is certainly possible again..there might be change. And there are a LOT more bike commuters out there, so I'll continue to be hopeful of a better future.

Two things:

1. I should qualify my "who cares about suburbia" comment a bit. I wasn't suggesting that anyone give up on any particular area. Just for myself, I can't get too wound up about bike access to Settlers' Ridge. Maybe I lived there, or used the trail, my attitude would be different. Somebody does need to always fight the good fight.

2. Lyle is right. One thing I take away from JH Kunstler is the idea of "making other arrangements." I'm trying to position my family to better survive $7/gallon gasoline, among other things. I think most of the people on this board are making other arrangements, too. I'm fairly certain the shite is going to hit the fan someday, given that most of western culture is built on a house of cards, so it's just a matter of being ready for it.

The politics are such that we will probably have cheap gas - until we don't. It won't be the almost-cheap $7 a gallon for long.

They have already hit up the Strategic Oil Reserves for minor shortages. People talk about drilling Alaska - even now when oil is still so cheap that people are burning it. Anyone with sense should know those oil reserves will be worth some serious money someday.

Mick

The politics are one thing, but the market forces may be unstoppable. The evil "speculators" who get blamed for pushing up the price of oil include a lot of people who are anticipating the disaster you are afraid of, Mick. By anticipating it, they push up the price *before* the supply completely disappears. And by pushing up the price, they make it profitable to research and build alternative technologies. Which, in its turn, postpones the day of reckoning. At least, that's what I'm hoping.

I toodled out to the Robinson REI yesterday, they didn't build a climbing wall. The building has a high interior space like SSide, but they placed the entrance so they can pretty much never put in a wall. The casual explanation I got was that they want to orient this store more to cycling, but they seemed to have exactly the same amount of cycling stuff as the other store. It just seems like sort of a "third tier" attempt. The SSide store remains much nicer.

As an aside, all of Robinson is kind of "brownfield", it's all old mine tailings and crap. We lost some nice woods with riding trails when the stupid Costco side was built, but at least no farms were plowed under, like they do out in Washington County, that makes me sick.