BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

So did she know there was something under her car ?

she thought it was "an animal" so she kept driving

Not the first time I've heard that excuse in this kind of situation, sadly...

Video half way down the page

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local-beat/Hit-Cyclist-Dies-103436434.html

How much noise would this bike be making scraping underneath this truck? For THREE miles?

The reporter says that the bicyclist "was not wearing reflective clothing" at the time.

Normally they make it sound as if the cyclist is at fault for not wearing a helmet so she must have been wearing one but they're still making it sound like she it was her fault for riding in the road and not wearing reflective clothing

Check out the comments from poster ISU4REAL on the story. He almost makes a grain of sense in the first post, but goes downhill from there in successive posts.

The survivors are those who purchase the largest, heaviest vehicles money can buy.

It's that line of thinking that is all too pervasive, and is our worst enemy out there.

Unverified is how dark the victim was, and/or how many blinkies she was wearing. Pure speculation, but I find it hard to believe she was without any lighting.

I don't know about anyone else, but every blinky/reflector I've ever owned includes an incredibly shitty plastic attachment that barely survives everyday use, let alone being dragged along the pavement under a multi-ton vehicle for almost 4 miles. The lights and reflectors are probably somewhere between the accident site and the driver's house. Way to destroy evidence, Ms. Christy R. Littleford of Upper Marlboro, MD.

If you watch any of the news videos, you can see a crazy amount of damage to that Escalade. I can't believe a person wouldn't stop given that situation. How can you even show that this woman was the one driving? Maybe someone else in the house was drunk and she is taking the fall?

This story stinks.

Agreed Dwillen

The only possible reasoning I can come up with is that she could have possibly thought that a bumper or something was dragging

Probably total bullshit though.

Going home @ 4 or 5 am smacks of alcohol (or gaveyard shift?)

5:30 am.

Even if Natasha were dressed all in matte black on a matte black bike, there's no way that an unimpaired driver would not see her in the moment before impact. I mean, yeah, maybe not soon enough to avoid the impact, but definitely when the victim was 5 feet in front of her.

And that's even if. More likely, there were blinkies on the bike or the person which were ground to bits in the 4 miles from the point of impact to the perp's driveway.

My money is on "I tried to get away with it and my husband talked me out of that, so I made up this other story instead."

Most people who drive Escalades or other similar things (in my experience) notice when a fly hits their fancy expensive vehicle, and damage like that doesn't go unnoticed. This story is not believable.

Most people who drive Escalades or other similar things (in my experience) notice when a fly hits their fancy expensive vehicle

THIS

People who shit a brick if they notice a speck of dirt on their sport utility vehicle...

Interesting article

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=112106&catid=175

Some excerps:

"Police say initial reports had not found any reflective clothing or materials near the crime scene or on Pettigrew."

*AND*

"9NEWS NOW found pieces of reflective plastic just a few feet from the accident scene as well as a reflective sneaker which Pettigrew's mother identified as the victim's."

Way to do your job, Police...

The Lt. said, she thought she hit an animal and then called the police when she got home; therefore, she complied with all the laws. How come there was never a Sopranos episode that featured a bicycle "whacking?" they wouldn't have even had to get rid of the body. This is utterly incomprehensible.

Cop missed my bright-as-the-sun lights when he filled out a police report after my accident as well. Lights that are broken when the car hits you are still lights.

i hope the truth comes out on this. so sad.

she complied with all the laws.

Not if she was using a cellphone, she didn't.

Just what I needed to hear....another accident!!

At least they are investigating this one. Many of you saw the intersection my brother was killed in.

Was there any reason that the motorist didn't see my brother who wore reflective clothing? Not unless he was on a cell phone.. This is so sad!!

Kathi

Kathi - even on a cell phone, that intersection is only dangerous as the speeding inattentive drivers who cruise recklessly through it. I was shocked when we got there. I though maybe bushes or a blind corner or bad sight lines. Nothing conceivable.

"I have to get home"

"I'm soo late"

"Wooooooo! I'm toasted!"

"Whuh?"

"OMG - ttyl bff :*"

"F-ing traffic"

"F-ing bikes"

"F-ing stop signs"

"F-ing red lights"

"F-ing pedestrians"

"F-ing job"

"The sun was in my eyes"

"My flip flop was under the pedal"

"[obstruction] was blocking my [vehicle operation/brain]"

really? I mean, really? These are people they're killing. How can they say these things out loud and think it's acceptable?

full disclosure - I watched in my rear view mirror this evening an SUV barrel towards me out of control, screeching, almost flipping as I waited for a u-turner to get out of my lane. The car behind the SUV hit it and knocked it sideways. This on a road I bike down. Had I been on a bike (more likely than a car), I'd be in an ambulance now.

This is exhausting.

Yes, when I was there on Sunday, I thought in my mind over and over again.... how could he ever hit my brother unless he was on a cell phone. Did they order the cell phone records....."NO"

It is disgusting as well as exhausting.......

Thank goodness you were in a car.......

Absolutely ridiculous

Holy cow - this just occurred to me. In Don Parkers case he was hit on Harts Run road where the road heads due east, by an east-bound driver, at about sunrise.

Guess what, Dr. Varacallo, Maple avenue, due east, eastbound driver, sunrise. Check the maps.

This is why, last Friday, when I was riding into town, I was glad there was cloud cover at 8:00 am when I was eastbound on Steubenville Pike. When you are a vulnerable little naked animal out there on the road, you have to consider every factor of your environment in order to survive.

Not relevant to the Maryland thing, but damn, it just hit me.

I saw this thread while listening to Ray LaHood's speech at the distracted driving summit from earlier today.

Distraction.gov - what a messed up domain.

Effing sad.

I heard about this from the local green party chair. Apparently she was a really awesome, energetic, young candidate.

I don't buy the sun-in-my-eyes argument in either case. Harts Run Rd, the trees are quite tall and close enough to the road to block sunlight at the point of impact. 14th/Shaffer, there are both trees and buildings. In addition, Kathi pointed this out in one of the early posts:

Scott Sago, the driver, said there was sun in his eyes, but the family has checked this out and the sun was far down the road and over by the mall.The sun would not be causative according to family members that checked it out several times at the same time with the same results. However, the sun issue still came up in the police report. The sun issue seems to be a common thread in these kinds of accidents.

Police reports are not the gospel truth, or at least, they should not be. Others on this board have related several other incidents where the police report was missing info, misleading or just plain wrong.

i cant believe how much damage there is on the vehicle.

i sort of wish i hadnt watched the video, it has made me pretty distraught.

heart-wrenching. ugh.

didn't anyone else see what happened or saw her driving those 4 miles with the bike under the car?

I cannot keep opening these posts. It's just getting to be too sad, frustrating and scary for me.

This sort of thing keeps coming back to my anger about the sophistry of blaming bicycle fatalities on "unsafe roads" instead of "unsafe drivers".

If there were one crucial rule for motorists, it would be this: Don't run into stuff.

I guess that's asking too much.

On Monday night I was listening to "This American Life" on the radio, and one of the segments was a guy talking about how he had killed a girl on a bike 20 years ago, and he's written a book. I couldn't even continue listening, it wasn't bad or anything, I just couldn't do it.

If anyone has the stomach for it, it was episode #359 - Life after death, act one.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/359/life-after-death

the road design can make it more or less difficult for a driver to be safe by taking advantage of psychology and... something that in my head I call road-ergonomics, I'm sure there's better words for it (things like slowing down traffic by making the lanes narrower, or passive speed control through speed humps or timed lights).

But ultimately I have to agree, the responsibility lies with the driver.

Anybody know about a ride for this lady? Ghost Bike? Where to send condolences/flowers?

On Monday night I was listening to "This American Life" on the radio, and one of the segments was a guy talking about how he had killed a girl on a bike 20 years ago, and he's written a book. I couldn't even continue listening, it wasn't bad or anything, I just couldn't do it.

If anyone has the stomach for it, it was episode #359 - Life after death, act one.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/359/life-after-death

I clicked on it, podcast sponsored by some in-car electronic gadgets from Ford...

This just flipping sucks... AGAIN.

I swear, put this woman on a lie detector test..... bet she totally knew she did it, or had an idea about it, but was too coward to act responsibly when she should have done it.

Maybe she had some illegal substance or similar, and waited until she got home and got rid of it before she 'noticed' she had hit something.

I swear... any person on this kind of accident should be required to go through a Lie Detector. If you're a driver who caused an accident, specially when you caused a death -be of a cyclist, pedestrian, etc... if you're gonna claim "oops I didn't notice, it was an accident -shit" you have to get tested.

I swear... this really is getting old.

And I ask once again, how many stupid-ass drivers can use this kind of stupid excuses?

And how many people must die under these circumstances until REAL laws are enacted to protect pedestrians/cyclists, but to hold accountable drivers as well?

Sheeesh.....

So sad.....

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=112106&catid=175

oh, she knew. Witness said sparks and smoke came from under her car and she pulled over to the side of the road but didn't get out, then continued to her house. Thank god a witness came forward.

She knew, and she kept going.

edited to clarify - video of witness is on RHS of page, the video post-death (not the other video)

I've seen no mention in any report of any kind of tox scan or blood test. Nor have I heard anything about investigating cell phone records.

One would hope that both would be standard in a fatal accident case.

Mick - she held on until Tuesday morning, it wasn't fatal until all the evidence had left the driver's system. Phone... we have first hand experience in how PA DAs treat that (unless they looked in to it and didn't find anything, and never reported that to media). Maybe her high profile will encourage a more thorough investigation, but Dr. V and Mr. P weren't exactly nobodies. Then again, this isn't MD.

I wouldn't mind seeing laws requiring prompt police reports including breathalyzers at the very least in any accident involving even just property damage - I'd expect insurance companies to lobby for that, since I'm guessing their payout is different if the driver is impared.

Does anybody know of any official 'Petition' started by any group or city or individual asking for better laws to protect cyclists/pedestrians against this phony drivers, and better-specific training for law enforcement individuals in how to investigate this accidents?

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous!

Talk to Edmonds59. He wrote one and collected more than a few pages of signatures on Sunday.

A petition was circulated on Sunday, with some very general recommendations. Kathi M has the original and I believe she is going to work with Josh at PA Walks and Bikes to get it into the appropriate hands.

Someone asked if there would be an on-line version, but I am not aware that any action has been taken toward that yet.

The training that LEOs need is not to assume that the motorist is telling the truth, just because she's a white woman with a fancy car. They'd be a lot more skeptical of a person of color in a beat up Buick, I bet.

Instead of punishing the driver (after the fact), more energy needs to be spent educating drivers proactively. I remember when I first saw "Share the Road" signs in rural West Virginia. Now, I'm pretty sure I look past them if they are there. Much like the "truth" campaign against smoking, it may be time to start over. Sheep (ahem) people have short attention spans. How about "Please Don't Kill Cyclists?"

Consequences are not only for punishing the criminal. Ideally they also serve as a deterrent for committing said crime in the first place. Right now, you can drive your car like an idiot, kill whoever you want, and as long as you aren't drunk or high, no crime has taken place. It might cost you a little money, but hey, if you can afford that Escalade and fancy house, who gives a shit about fines, right? That needs to change. If you know you'll be jailed for killing a pedestrian, cyclist, little kid running into the street after their ball, you may operate your vehicle more care. This is the case in other parts of the world, so why not here?

Asking people nicely not to kill us sounds great, but that should be paired with actual consequences if they ignore such a request.

That suv has a flat tire, a caved in grill and a bike that would have made grinding noises on any manhole covers or slight bumps in the road. There is some absolute bullshit going on here.

Edmonds - I listened to that as well and it shook me pretty bad. In the end of the story you learn that the girl committed suicide (or so is inferred from a journal entry), but still rough.

Edmonds - I listened to that as well and it shook me pretty bad. In the end of the story you learn that the girl committed suicide (or so is inferred from a journal entry), but still rough.

I think he mentioned this, but then later interpreted the journal entry otherwise. Possibly that she realized that she may die [at some later point], today. She realized she was mortal, and wrote that in her journal. Not uncommon for a teenager. That is what I took away from listening all the way to the end. Maybe his book says otherwise, but I'm not giving him money to find out. If you see cyclists far down the road and don't adjust your speed accordingly, then you can't absolve yourself of any fault.

on the radio program (which I'm listening to now), the book described has an amazon page, where a sentence caught my eye:

a very hard fact: we can try our human best in the crucial moment, and it might not be good enough.

The irony of putting "Please" before "Don't Kill Cyclists" isn't meant to be nice. It would only stand to reach those that have some intelligence and compassion. For those that may not, you can use harsh punishment but it is not nearly as effective (IMO).

I came across this a week or so ago

http://store.mcsweeneys.net/index.cfm/fuseaction/catalog.detail/object_id/39c29e31-7337-4ac6-b919-e30097230fcd/HalfaLife.cfm

and thought about posting it here, but found I couldn't stand to think about it much. "This American Life" is a fine and contradictory show, and the McSweeney's operation does great work. So ... I guess ... this memoir too ... should be illuminating ... yet

Warning labels on cell phones. Problem solved.

In a perfect world, it would be great for re-education and re-teaching drivers how to drive. I will still vote for anyone who brings around this change, but it seems as though jail-time and serious fines are the only thing that scare people any more.

Every one of these stories that has happened all summer is just another underscore on the fact that a driver can hit someone, and as long as they aren't high or drunk (or aren't tested for it…), so what. (to echo what dwillen said)

I honestly don't know what the best course of action to get these laws changed, updated, and enforced. I do know that I am getting fed up of seeing these headlines though, and thinking/hoping no one I know (or myself) becomes the next one.

So who do we go to from here to get phones + driving outlawed in PA? How do we support LaHood better in PGH so we can support him better nationwide? How to we push for tougher, but more appropriate punishment for these crimes? (ie, community service in a realm that person was a part of)

I know I will be calling and writing a few people of the government type, but does anyone have better ideas?

@wojty I recently wrote a pointed email to that effect to state Senator Jay Costa and received a personalized reply just yesterday (presumably from one of his staff.) A quote from his email:

"As you may be aware, the General Assembly is considering several bills that would address cell phone use on our roadways. Among these are House Bill 2070, which was laid on the table in the Senate on July 3, 2010 and would ban the use of hand-held cellular devices to talk or text while driving. Senate Bill 143, which is currently before the House Transportation Committee, would prohibit texting while driving. I am a co-sponsor of Senate Bill 143. In addition, the Senate laid House Bill 67 on the table on July 3. That bill would restrict cell phone use by drivers under age 18. House Bill 67’s Senate amendments were opposed by the House, and if it is to be enacted, a conference committee will have to consider the bill. I agree that a ban on cell phone use could drastically increase the safety of our roads. I will keep your support for this ban in mind as these bills move through the legislative process."

So, to be an optimist, the topic is under discussion, and it certainly would not hurt to reach out to your senators and representatives. If you are unsure who they are for your district, you can find out here: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/findyourlegislator/county_list.cfm?CNTYLIST=ALLEGHENY

Not that that will do anything to stop general recklessness, but it's a step in the right direction.

I don't know the bills, but I would hope they are to make cell phone usage a primary offense, not like the seat belt thing where you have to break another law first in order to be ticketed for that. Anybody know?

Great perspective from a surprising place: WTOP radio in DC is a talk radio station that is one of the number one morning stations listened to by commuters. Here's her whole post and an excerpt:

"Every driver I know will cite the examples they see of cyclists who zip between cars, blow through stop lights, or stop signs, or generally treat traffic laws as things that apply only when convenient. I've been frustrated myself when a pedestrian darts out into traffic outside of a crosswalk, or a cyclist who decicdes to thread the needle in gridlocked traffic. But what of the drivers who drink and drive, who text and drive, who speed, who travel in the shoulder or make the decision that make their attitudes clear: the laws apply--but not to me, not at this moment?"

One of my non-cycling acquaintances is dead set against the cell phone & texting ban. I've picked his brain any number of times, but like Barney Frank said to the woman at the health care rally a year ago, it's like arguing with a dining room table [video]. Their reasoning is devoid of reason, they're just repeating sound bites, but doing it loudly, often, and from high places.

There occasionally is a teaspoon of sense in what he says (e.g., medical emergencies), but accompanied by a shovelful of BS. I do not know how to overcome this. Reason only works on elected officials who listen to reason.

I've mentioned this before here on this forum, but I lived in a state when they passed the cell phone ban.

As a cyclist who didn't drive a car, the immediate fallout from this ban was entirely negative. The weeks after the law "went live" (everyone knew it because every retailer was hocking the bluetooth headsets like you wouldn't believe) I was almost hit by motorists more times than I have ever been in my entire life, including my time here in Pittsburgh.

I imagine the typical driver thought process went something like this:"Oh look, my phone is ringing... but that law says I can't drive and talk... but I really want to talk... how about I pull over and talk?!" All that has to happen before the shit goes to voice mail, so everyone I saw just blindly pulled over to the side of the road without a second glance or turn signal...totally focused on immediately stopping their driving to talk... Bike lanes, pedestrians, other vehicles be damned... they were pulling over to talk on the phone. I saw people pulled over on the freeway, in bike lanes, in bus stops, parking lots, double parked on the roads, everywhere. They just threw on the 4-ways and sat there talking. Phone emergency! Imagine that you now needed to worry that every speeding car wasn't just speeding past you, but could pull over and slam on the brakes at any point, with no notice whatsoever every time someone rings them.

I don't know if that craziness is still going on, but it was super dangerous when I was there. I am for a texting ban, and banning phones all together, like an open container of alcohol. If you pull over and talk on that thing, it should still be a ticket. I don't support any sort of hands free law that encourages people to pull over and talk.

@ HoffmanJ - Jay Costa has also been very good about writing back to me when I write to him about various things.

@ Edmonds - I was stopped at a red light next to a car and noticed that both the driver and passenger weren't buckled in. I just don't get it. It's like people who don't recycle, another group I can't stand. It's not difficult to put on a seat belt, and makes a big difference if something goes wrong. I guess I don't subscribe to the "steering wheel-mounted spike" school of encouraging safe driving...

Update: Same Old Story

http://wjz.com/local/pettigrew.death.vigil.2.1931954.html

Dozens Of People Gather For Candidate's Vigil

There are new questions regarding the death of Maryland Green Party hopeful Natasha Pettigrew.

She was struck and killed while training for a triathalon in Prince George's County.

Andrea Fujii reports now her family wants to know why the driver hasn't been charged.

Pettigrew's family and friends held a vigil Friday night, honoring her spirit and looking for answers.

Dozens of people who loved Pettigrew gathered at the site where the 30-year-old was hit on her bike by an SUV and later died, casting doubt on the driver's story.

"'I thought I hit a deer' is a novel way of saying why you did not act responsibly," said a friend of Pettigrew.

"I hit a squirrel one day and you can ask my husband...I cried. I knew I had hit it and I stopped," said Tammy Clowney, victim's friend.

Pettigrew was a Maryland Green Party candidate running for U.S. Senate.

Early Sunday morning Pettigrew was on her bike when police say Christy Littleford hit her as she was riding on Route 202.

Police say Littleford left Pettigrew on the side of the road and continued to drive home, thinking she hit an animal. When she saw Pettigrew's bike wedged under her vehicle she called police.

Pettigrew's mother and friends want answers.

"I would like now to ask that we have a thorough investigation," said Kenniss Henry, Pettigrew's mother.

"I just think the biggest question at this point is if the driver knew that she hit someone or if she really thought she hit a deer," said Crystal Hayes, Pettigrew's friend.

The driver has not yet been charged. The Prince George's County State's Attorney says the investigation could take weeks.

I called my representative today.......

investigation could take weeks?

Ill bet he also said

There is no statues of limitations

We work slowly

Dont expect out decision to be public

I'm a cyclist as well

I understand what you are feeling

call me cynical but im starting to understand political speech.

Translation

Go Away and leave us alone, you dont matter, you never will matter and we have more important things to do instead of dealing with people who never grew up and put away their toys.

and if you think im getting all worked up over nothing try a google alert for "Cyclist killed" and read through some of the stories.

I had no idea PA was in such a minority with phone usage while driving.

http://www.ghsa.org/html/stateinfo/laws/cellphone_laws.html

I had only heard about 'big' states like CA and NY making the switch a few years back, that a lot of the other ones went by un-noticed. This makes it all the more infuriating…

dwillen - I was in california when they made they switch over, and saw very similar behavior while I was there. However, I also saw a decent (not a lot, just enough) enforcement of people driving recklessly because of that, that it seemed to disappear by the time I had left a few months later. Something to keep in mind and remind our local officials about, should such a law pass.

Ten states, PA included, have f'n nothing. Why am I not surprised by this?

If the world is ending, and you want to avoid it, move to Pennsylvania. It'll be at least 15 years before it happens there.

Recycling. Smoking in restaurants. Protecting breastfeeding moms. What to do with the 1998 tobacco settlement money (we were #46 of 46 to decide this). The list is long. Some states had legislation on the books years, even decades ahead of PA.

PA was the first state that a commercial oil well was drilled in and it is the home of the first nationally-chartered bank (Wikipedia). Oh wait...

Don't forget Morningsider that PA was one of the first states to have a highway department and build the PA turnpike...that all the other states mimicked.

Oh, and also one of the first to have a strip mall (Monroeville's Miracle Mile Shopping Center).

was.

But it took three (3) years to implement a speed limit on said turnpike.

Edit: It "only" took seven (7) months.