BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

bob from iron city has an electric one. i rode it once. it was pretty fun

My sister uses a bike with an electric motor on her year round bike commute in the Twin Cities. She says it makes bike commuting possible for her, where her distance and history of injury might otherwise make it impossible. She says she uses the electric part mostly on the way home, which is a gradual uphill (yes they have hills in Minneapolis) most of the way. I've tried it out, and it was fun. The effect of the motor was clear as you pedaled with the engine on, but was NOT strong enough to puch you along without pedaling. It should be noted that she's been usind this system for a good number of years, so it is certainly an "older" model.

I believe motor assisted bikes still need to be registered and plated in PA.

EDIT:

Further research makes it look like this is a gray area of the law in PA. From what I can tell, as long as it started as a bicycle, it as seen as such under the law, but you have to have a valid drivers license.

I couldn't find much on the distinguishing features between a motor assisted bike and a moped.

@ndromb: (revised) http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/fs-momo.pdf

@sloaps: In PA, there is special laws if a "motor-driven cycle" is under 50cc. Mopeds (under 50cc, operable pedals, under 1.5hp, under 25mph) still require plates, insurance, and registration.

Once a moped is over 50cc but under 5hp, it is a "motor-driven cycle". If it were over 5hp, it would be classified as a "motorcycle"

So that fact sheet says that motorized pedalcycles are not titled in the state. I guess the question is, what makes a motorized pedalcycle different than a moped. Gears?

Personally, I think if you want something with a motor, just get a scooter or motorcycle.

I don't really see the practicality of a gas powered bike. Why not drop the engine and just have a bike? It would save a lot of weight.

I guess the "transmission" and the safety features, such as, running lights and turn signals???

throw a whizzer into the mix, and it gets very confusing...

So if you take a moped and take the lights off of it, it's a motorized pedalcycle?

I have a feeling that there isn't much legal precedence for this issue. I don't imagine many cops caring unless the rider does something stupid.

Wiki to the rescue:

They define Electric Bikes this way:

Federal Laws and Regulation Defined

The U.S. NHTSA Code of Motor Vehicle Safety simply defines low-speed electric bicycles as consumer products and not Motor Vehicles for safety standards[21]. In doing so they vest authority over commercial safety standards to the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

The Consumer Product Safety Commission(CPSC) stipulates that commercially manufactured low-speed electric bicycles, or tricycles, must have fully operable pedals, an electric motor not exceeding 750W of power and a top motor-powered speed not in excess of 20 miles per hour (32 km/h).[22] An electric bike remaining within these specifications will be regarded simply as a bicycle for purposes of safety standards. This supersedes any state law that is more stringent, but only regarding safety equipment required on electric bicycles and the standard of manufacture they must meet.[23]. The legislation enacting this amendment to the CPSC is also known as HR 727[24].

No known federal regulations apply to the manufacture of homebuilt electric bicycles.

[edit] Use

As of 2005, where Federal funds have been used in the construction of bicycle or pedestrian paths motor vehicles including electric bicycles (here defined as having a motor weighing less than 100 lb (50 kg)) are not permitted unless State or Local regulations permit [25]. This was known as the Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century (TEA-21), or Public Law 105-178, or by its 2003 re-authorization which expired in 2005 the Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act (SAFETEA-LU).[26][27]

In total, the current federal legislation leaves the legality of operation on public rights-of-way to the discretion of individual States and municipalities.

There is however still confusion over the various legislations involving Electric Bicycles. This stems from the fact that while places like the US and Canada offer some Federal regulation, the legality of road use is left to the various States or Provinces and then complicated further by municipal laws and restrictions. Further more there are a range of classifications and terms describing them, "Power-assisted bicycle" (Canada) or "Power assisted cycle" (United Kingdom) or ”Electric pedal assisted cycles” (European Union) or simply "electric bicycles", and as such in some cases have varying laws according to their respective classifications in some places.

Pennsylvania

State law defines a motorized pedalcycle as a motor-driven cycle equipped with operable pedals, a motor rated at no more than 1.5 brake horsepower, a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 cubic centimeters, an automatic transmission, and a maximum design speed of no more than 25 miles per hour.[55] Subchapter J of Publication 45 spells out the vehicle requirements in full.

As of 2008 a standard class C license, proof of insurance, and registration (annual fee: $9.00) are required for operation of any motorized pedalcycle in Pennsylvania.

The definition was clearly written with gasoline-powered pedalcycles in mind. The requirement of an automatic transmission is troublesome for those who just want to add an electric-assist motor to a bicycle, for almost all bicycles have transmissions consisting of chains and manually shifted sprockets. The registration form asks for a VIN, making it difficult to register some foreign-made ebikes. The fine for riding an unregistered electric bike is approximately $160.00 per event as of 2007.

...unless the rider does something stupid...

I'm cranking along the North Shore Trail somewhere around the 31SB one day a few months back when I hear what sounded like an outboard motor coming up behind me. It was a bicycle with an unmuffled gasoline motor, screaming along upwards of 30 mph.

Bad manners, at the very least. I leave the legality and safety issues to the students as a homework exercise.

I am looking at getting an ELECTRIC assist motor for my bike, to make commuting to my moms house in Mckeesport (from the southside) possible. It will not power the bike by itself, but when you pedal with the motor on, it will assist you and make it possible for weak girls like me to haul my fat a$$ plus some "luggage" home.

I'm all for them, as long it's an assist motor and not some gas powered monster engine. If your not working, and your burning fuel, why even have a "bike".

People ask all the time if the pedicabs have any kind of electric assist motor, but they don't.

Do these electric motors plug in or what? I'd be interested to see if there's any regenerative braking (à la the Prius) to recapture that energy.

No regenerative braking, yet. at least in my price range. The motor sits in, is the hub. Yes plug in to recharge. The technology isn't quite there but is getting much better. I'm comparing them to gas engines, which are too noisy. But also I don't want to buy a battery I have to throw out in a year.

new question

I've been looking at the stokemonkey, which is really out of my price range right now. Does anyone know anything about hub motors. The kind where you just replace a wheel (in my case the front one) with this hub motor wheel? They're a lot cheaper and I have to wonder why.

Example: http://cleanrepublic.com/clean_republic_electric_bike_pro_pack.html

@stu--I think I've seen that bike locked to a pole or parking meter downtown. It's got a gas engine in the main triangle and I thought to myself "wow that must be loud". (As an aside has anyone else ever encountered the group of mo-peders I dubbed Hell's Houseflies down in Junction Hollow or Schenley Park? They make a huge racket when the ride by.)

@Bikelove2010-- I know nothing about motor assisted bikes exept that Trek makes some very expensive ones. But think about the gearing on your current bike. It may be that you already have a very low MTB type gear (super small chainring in front, BIG cog in back)but if not that can make a huge difference in your human powered efforts.

And I just noticed I'm mostly responding to comments from three months ago. Doh!

The Practical Pedal ran a small review of the state of electric-assist bikes a few years ago.

Bikelove: the hub kit you listed has half the power of the StokeMonkey and comes with a sealed lead acid battery as opposed to a NiMH or Li-Poly battery. SLA is heavier and has different charging characteristics. It looks like the CleanRepublic lithium batteries cost significantly more than even their motors:

http://cleanrepublic.com/lithium_upgrade.html

But you ride a 60lb bike, right? Weight is less significant at that point.

I would guess a big part of the price difference is that the StokeMonkey is an American niche brand while that kit is probably pretty close to mass-market Chinese models.

I rode a friend's gas-powered 'cross bike a bit. It was cool, even if pretty loud and stinky.

Supposedly the motors on the new Trek line of e-assist bikes are pretty burly and could take you up Negley at 15mph w/no problem. pretty pricey though at ~$3,000. I'd like to try one out. Hell, I'd love to get one for the office so we can show it off to all the folks who tell us at tabling events that they could never ride a bike in Pittsburgh.

+1 on JeffInPgh's comments about low gears.

Count the teeth in your small front chainring and smallest back cog (and second smallest back cog.)

Having a low enough low gear is a comfort. Mine is 22F, 30B (ratio of .73. Common 24 speeds tend to have .875 as the lowest gear). I occasionally yearn for lower with my trailer.

The SECOND lowest gear is also important.

Standard 3 chainring 24 speeds tend to have a 23% leap between their lowest gear and the second lowest but then a 9% increment between the second-to-highest and the highest gear.

This makes total sense - if you spend twice as much time going down hill at 25 mph than you do going uphill at 6 mph. In other words, no sense at all.

I had to shop hard to get a cogset where I have a 15% increase in gear ratio between 1st and 2nd gear(from 22F-30B to 22F-26B). I was willing to give up the ultra-low 22F-32B in order to have a civilized increment between 1st and 2nd gear.

Note: Any "serious" biker will tell you what a wimp I am to have these gear ratios and consider them important. "You COUNT the teeth?" one seller asked incredulously.

For every time I have failed to consider gear ratios adequitely before purchase, I have meditated on that failure for many happy hours climbing 18th St.

@mick Note: Any "serious" biker will tell you what a wimp I am to have these gear ratios and consider them important.

We spandex-clad middle-aged roadies use different gearing (at least when riding our road bikes), but I care about ratios and consider them important.

If someone want to play around with gearing, no where better than the late Sheldon Brown's calculator

http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/

EVERY serious biker considers gear ratios important!

I'd be incredulouser if someone was incredulous at me about that.

@alankhg- yeah, I ride a 60lb bike, which is kind of what worries me about getting anything too cheap, will it have enough power to make my ride any easier?

@bjanaszek- neat article. I used to think e-bikes were for wimps (like the bike shop crowd), but now that I ride more and more, I see how strong you guys really are and how I need a little extra umph.

I kind of new I needed to wait and get the stokemonkey (or some other less cheap product), I just needed some reassurance : )

I really like how the stokemonkey works, how it's like the second rider on a tandem and not just a wheel that turns itself. It wont power the bike without me pedaling, which should keep me from becoming incredibly lazy. My main problem is I use my bike for commuting, joy rides, chores, pretty much everything. I also hate making more than one trip if I don't have to. Numerous times I've ridden to work, then on the the trail for fun, then stopped at the grocery store on my way home, and crapped out before I got there. I don't want something that's going to get in the way or turn my bike into a motorcycle, i just need a little help every now and then.

I definitely need to check the gears.

as an aside, I'm much happier about ebikes on MURPs and bike lanes than I am about dog walkers and four-year-olds on their first bikes.

The ideological purity of human power seems much less important to me than the practical aspects of how to share the same piece of pavement with someone who is controlling a whole lot of it.

I certainly think that gas-powered wheeled devices, including those crazy powered razor scooters, should have serious emissions and sound restrictions. I'd rather breathe modern automotive exhaust than two-stroke smoke.

(edit: the ideological purity of human power is certainly interesting, but I believe that's more than the state needs to be involved with as far as transportation facilities are concerned.)

Apologies to Bikelove for going all intensely gear-head, which is only peripherally related to electric assists.

+1 for Lyle The ideological purity of human power seems much less important to me than the practical aspects of how to share ...