BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I am OK with this. Think of it more like Portland's Sunday Parkways.

"Perhaps somebody with some standing in the community should have a serious

talk with the organizers about these ideas..."

I'm not sure if he really means to say that the people involved with BikePGH have no standing in the community, but it sure sounds like it. The staff of BikePGH isn't a bunch of chumps that were born yesterday, and neither is the board of directors.

It is worth reading through the WPW comments though. Valuable part of the community with some worthwhile opinions.

There is an interesting question about who is more likely to persuade more non-riding people to get out on bikes: people in lycra doing 50 miles, or people in jeans doing 25.

Because people are persuaded by others they see as the "same".

If the strategic goal is to get more Pgh people aligned with bicycling, having -50 mile rides won't do it; novices aren't going to participate in that.

So I get the car-free short rides, and I get the "evangelism base-building" motive.

As a change-resistant self-interested guy, I'm going to miss the -50 miler and the temptation of the -60 miler.

In a perfect world, I want to have it all, a car-free 25-miler to recruit more allies and AND a 50-60 miler for those interested.

I can see how getting more people on bikes will help us all, and I do think the car-free shorter rides will build the base.

@vannevar for the same reason I kind of loathe myself for commuting in tights... but they are so much more comfortable than jeans or chinos, of which ridden in regularly will get the crotch blown out.

of which ridden in regularly will get the crotch blown out

Yes, this is my problem. A few years, one of my kids was in the hospital. I was taking the elevator down the cafeteria, and dropped a coin. I bent over to pick it and *riiiiiiiiip*, there went the arse of my pants. Ooops.

I think it does make a difference to some folks if they thing they need "special clothes" to ride their bike as transportation. Even if they don't mind the look of lycra, it's still another thing to buy. Grant Petersen beats this particular drum quite loudly.

ETA: I think the car-free distances are a swell idea.

I read an article about winter cycling the other day and that's what made the point so I could understand it - if somebody asks me how do I ride in winter, I say "Base Layer, Wool Sweater, Pit-Zip Jacket, technical pants" and all they hear is yada-yada-yada because it's not going to happen for them.

He said, look at Amsterdam they're all winter riding in street clothes.

What I got out of that is that the kind of riding I do is probably distinctly different from persuasive, welcoming "advocacy cycling".

In fact rather than modeling bicycling, me riding around town in my crazy clothes and shoes and geegaws is probably a presentation of barriers to people who have bikes in their garage.

I want those people (voters, btw) to get the bike out of the garage, go out on the Jail Trail and do 5 miles in their jeans and PF Flyers.

The more I think about this, I think: we can't persuade 5% of Pittsburgh to put on padded shorts and ride 50 miles. But we might persuade 5% of Pittsburgh to do 5 miles on the Jail Trail, and if we could accomplish that then the politics would shift and all the spandex-bike-geeks like me would benefit.

It does deflate my personal aura of role-model smugness but it kind of makes sense to me. Maybe the future of bicycle advocacy isn't getting more people to ride centuries, it's getting more people to ride for a cup of coffee.

He said, look at Amsterdam they're all winter riding in street clothes.

Because it is pancake flat and the average commute is probably just a few miles.

it's getting more people to ride for a cup of coffee

Yes.

I would arrive to work drenched in sweat if I wore "normal" clothes. The only thing I wear now that I wouldn't wear on a night out is my bright orange jacket.

The future of bicycle advocacy is not getting more people to ride centuries.

A couple thoughts if 25 miles isn't enough:

Ride to and from the start from somewhere else.

2 x 25 = 50?

You're right. We need more people riding in rando events!

I always believed the multiple choices in mileage is there is something for everyone. A short family friendly ride down the trail to a mountain climbing 60 mile ride.

Having the roads closed is a great idea, and even my 70 something grandmother in-law would participate.

I'm going to gently suggest that those of us who care about the longer routes should get together with Seth and volunteer our time/resources to work towards such things.

There, I suggested it.

ride a relaxed 25 mile lap. hang out and eat some food and bs with fellow cyclists (new and old) then go do another 25 mile lap for fun.

The city is always there to ride a 60 mile loop while open to traffic.

I can ride 60+ miles any time I like... AND I don't use padded shorts or even wear spandex! (I don't wear cotton either, however).

With regards, first, to postings thus far on this page for this topic:

1. The future of bicycle advocacy is based upon individuals lobbying their officials for change. This has no correlation to the mileage you prefer on your ride.

2. If you say someone can ride two 25 miles loops to achieve their goal of 50, there is the equal argument that you can ride 12.5 out and back to achieve your 25 miles.

3. Yes, the city is always there for a 60 miles route while open to traffic…and it is always there open to traffic for 1, 4, 25, 155, etc…

One of the good things about this event, as someone else stated, is that there is something distance wise for anyone. Asking if someone in jeans riding 25 miles or someone in lycra riding 50 miles is more likely to get someone else interested is a simple question…It just depends on the new rider’s goals. Someone might find dressing in spandex and sitting on a bike for 4 hours going in one giant loop and pounding hills ridiculous, so short mileage in casual clothing might appeal. Someone else could say they have more of a desire to push themselves to ride as far as tough of a route to see their limits and thus be in it for the workout. I hope someone is thinking people don’t get into biking to ride longer distances.

I, personally, have lived back in Pittsburgh for 2 years now, and this has been the funnest event for me. I took the 60 miles challenge each year and my FAVORITE picture now is from the 2010 ride, with a college friend of mine on an outlook on Mt Washington celebrating conquering the challenge of the 60 miles route, and, specifically, Mt Washington after already cycling 50 miles. It also gave me a GREAT opportunity to see most of the city, getting to see parts I had never been to in my life), Taking up cycling as a cross-training activity on my non-running days is what motivated me to do it and work myself into shape to tackle things like that, or a century, because, well, that is what appealed to me and numerous people I know that took up the sport……..but you may not have, and that is fine.

The bottom line is that there is apparently a pretty good split in numbers between these 2 types of riders. Whether the long routes are cut or if the short were to be cut, you are going to alienate and turn away people from the event and thus shrink the event rather than grow it. For new riders, providing some closed segments on the short routes may be advantageous, especially in taking care of instances like last year on Butler Street where cyclists rode 5 or 6 wide blocking vehicles from passing. It is called Share The Road, not Give Cyclists The Road (counterproductive in changing people’s attitudes towards cyclists on roads).

Hopefully when this event arrives it is one that accommodates all types of cyclists that exist in Pittsburgh and not just one segment.

With respect, msudak, I disagree on your first point. Elected officials only change for two reasons: money and popularity. Since there is no deep-pockets bicycling lobby to back us, advocacy must be achieved by making it more popular so that elected officials cannot ignore the cycling communities' needs.

And I agree with something someone else said earlier: it's more about the ride to the coffee shop than Pedal Pgh. The key is making bicycling an everyday activity for more people.

For me if the route is only 25 miles or 60 miles I still plan to participate. I'll also will be wearing my spandex even if it's a 1 mile event..... Unless I keep gaining weight.

With all due respect, AtLeastMyKidsLoveMe,this organization's existence and success contradicts your point. If all there was to it was to have people hop on their bike and ride, then there would be no purpose for this organization and its activities as a device of change. However, it is not just that simple as what is necessary is to have a voice and push for change rather than just go ride and assume it happens.

A pretty common sense approach to deciding distances would be to see what the participation was by distance in past years. I would find it very hard to believe that there weren't enough people riding the 50 miles route to warrant it...and I don't recall any volunteers on Mt Washington, so the only commitment to keep holding the 60 miles route is a few signs.

@msudak:A pretty common sense approach to deciding distances would be to see what the participation was by distance in past years.

Per email from Seth:

In fact, the decision to

concentrate on a 25 mile route was driven by the fact that the highest

percentage of riders choose that distance each year.

I believe that Jim L. is pulling together a meeting with Seth next week. (Thursday seems to be the date currently on the table, but that has not yet been confirmed as far as I know.) I would strongly suggest that anyone who wishes to be involved in making the long routes happen should attend.

if you don't want to drive all the way into the city for a 25 mile ride why don't you ride your bike to the ride and back. that would make it pretty damn close to a century with a fun party in the middle.

it might just be me, but the conversation on the yahoo group smacks of a very vocal minority who is making this seem like a much bigger deal than it is because they don't like "their" thing changing.

also "funnest" isn't a word.

As a WPW member (and a Bike-Pgh member), I'm embarrassed by the negative comments swirling around the Pedal Pittsburgh event. I hope that cburch is right that it is a "vocal minority who is making this seem like a much bigger deal than it is because they don't like "their" thing changing."

I'm planning to volunteer as a marshall, as are many other WPW members. Don't let the reaction of some, taint all.

Respectfully, I think that some folks here are attacking opposing opinions as they totally fail to consider the viewpoint of others.

First of all, if the idea is to increase exposure and awareness, then the longer distances and the additional riders without a shadow of a doubt add to the main purpose and do not detract. It is a fact that many riders will not participate if the max distance is 25 miles.

Second, the idea of doing a ride when it takes twice as long to get to the ride and return as the total time spent on the bike is certainly questionable. As for riding to the event, sorry but I'm not riding from the south hills into town and then riding back out with no safety. It's just not worth it. There are SO many other routes that are available that are far better and more enjoyable than traversing the tunnels, RT51, etc.

As for it being a small minority, well I'm not even a participant in that Yahoo group, so rest assured it isn't just a small fringe group. This is a once per year event which lots of cyclists enjoyed for the longer routes. My own opinion - which is no less valid than those with contrary opinions here, is that at least 80 percent of those that previously did the longer routes will not participate this year. I will be one of those who do not. I'm not angry, but that's just the way it is. I understand the thought behind the change, but believe it is misguided.

The idea that the Pedal Pgh will increase "daily cycling" is to me frankly ludicrous. And BTW, cycling advocacy IS benefited by pressuring governmental officials in addition to creating a larger community. Not either. Both. And guess what? The loss of the longer distance cyclists IMHO will probably result in the pedal Pgh having significantly less particiants this year - not more. Again, my opinion is no less vaid than yours.

And "funnest" is just fine by me.

I'd prefer to do a longer route, and I was pretty surprised to hear about such a radical change to a long-running successful event. I'm not entirely sure what happened such that bike-pgh took over the event, was CDCP going to stop doing it if this didn't happen? I guess what I'm getting at is, if bike-pgh wanted a substantially different event, why not start a new event instead of replacing Pedal Pittsburgh? I don't feel like there has been a lot of transparency and that's probably at least partially the source of people's confusion/anger/etc.

That being said, I'll be happy to ride or volunteer for the event regardless.

I'm not a WPW member (although I probably should be), but I'd like to see this us vs them crap nipped in the bud. At least for the moment there's really only one overtly hostile post on that thread, and some other more reasonable grumbling.

@slowclimber. There are several of us on this message board who regularly (daily) commute into town from the South Hills so if you need advice on routes just ask. But I understand your frustration about dropping the longer rides, because I’ve always opted for the longest route too.

I think Salty’s comment about transparency is what’s generating the current heat.

I haven't formed an opinion on any change to Pedal Pgh yet since it has seemed as if everything is still in the "possible" and "maybe" stage. That I haven't formed an immediate opinion is in itself a bit surprising to me. It sounds, so far, as though I should stay away from the Yahoo discussion for the time being, for my own peace of mind.

I rather like the idea of riding in to do the ride. I frequently ride from Robinson into town, I have a nice 35+- mile loop from home, with a stop at a coffee place in the strip for a latte and pastry as a reward. I find it a bit surprising that any cycling enthusiast would completely negate the possibility of that particular type of ride.

I tried one of the WPW rides last year, the fall gathering thing, did 65 miles, meh, found it to be not my cup of tea. Frankly I find cranking off mileage for the sake of mileage in faceless exurbs much less interesting than riding into the city, dealing with the traffic, seeing interesting people and things. Whatevs.

I will ride Pedal Pgh regardless, if I am at all able. This is what I would like to see in Pittsburgh (Cyclovia, LA, here):



not scores of bikes being put on car racks to speed back out to the burbs as soon as the alotted mileage is polished off in the alotted time. That is what I find ludicrous.

++ Salty: I guess what I'm getting at is, if bike-pgh wanted a substantially different event, why not start a new event instead of replacing Pedal Pittsburgh?

++ Salty: I don't feel like there has been a lot of transparency and that's probably at least partially the source of people's confusion/anger/etc.

I really like the Cyclovia concept that Edmonds59 mentioned, and the Portland's Sunday Parkways that RSprake mentioned.

I can't speak for anybody at WPW - but I will say that everybody I've ever met from WPW was a good egg and a positive, helpful rider.

I think it's reasonable to say (looking back) that some of the passion can be attributed to a change that wasn't communicated as well as it might have been.

To a generic observer, the PP change can easily be seen as surprising, capricious, high-handed, arbitrary.

You just can't do that to grownups on a topic that's important to them without generating heat and pushback. You can't maintain good will by announcing change as an accomplished fact without providing any rationale for it, because human nature tends to fill the void. I know I'm that way.

I think the good news is, there's people who care about bicycling and some sort of plan for building public support. We have some great organizations - WPW, BikePgh both. There's room for communicating and listening.

I also really enjoyed cburch and TeamDecaf Weekend's comments about perspective. I think there are good smart people who can figure this out. Maybe still have the legacy PedalPgh in the spring, and a car-free evangelizing program in August. I like having more events.

I'm sorry if I'm cranky, I haven't ridden since Monday and I'm feeling it.

Respectfully, V.

Someone with a marketing background will tell you that when a product is established, then it has an image created in the consumer's mind and the hardest thing to do is change that. You wouldn't create the world's safest car and then call it a Pinto. You would start with a new name from scratch and create your own image in the consumer mind.

On that note, there is an image of what Pedal Pittsburgh is. Everyone has their own viewpoint and shows up for what appeals to them. Sorry, but for a LOT of people, it is a distance ride to tour the city, and apparently that differs from what the other genre of cyclists attend for. The fact that the conversation is even taking place shows the wide diversity of riders this event attracts. As stated in another post, there are a number of options that bring us all back to the finish for festivities all around the same general time, thus bringing together all segments of riders for one joint event.

There is already a firm image in existing riders' minds as to what this event was. If you make a drastic change that goes against a large group of riders' image, then you are just going to turn those riders off. If you don't care, fine, go on with it and deem those people as no longer part of the event. If that group is too large to lose, then rather than changing the image of this event, just hold another event with a different name.

And am I the only person finding it humorous as to what movie is being advertised on the home page of a the site as people are seeking to eliminate distance rides from Pedal Pittsburgh?

http://bike-pgh.org/blog/2012/01/12/event-bicycle-dreams-film-rolls-into-pittsburgh-on-january-25th/

Agree with all V's summation, above, but

Another thought that has apparently churdled to the top of my mind overnight, "Serious" cyclists are completely unable to slow down and do a fun, social ride on occasion? Really? Somebody is taking this whole biking thing too seriously.

Fitness Tip: If you want to get a good workout on a slower, shorter ride, pick up another heavier, crappier bike for the same workout!



Awesome!

type A person here weighing in on things: when i do pedal pgh every year, i leave as early as possible (mostly to avoid the really hot weather as noon approaches), ride briskly, and i get done pretty quickly and pretty early, as i am sure a lot of the carbon fiber riding, type A people from the suburbs or even club riders tend to do. if that is your style, then so be it. the first few years i did it, i enjoyed the scenery and didn't race through it. i didn't live in the city. i lived in the north hills and much of the 60 mile route was not part of what i rode. i speed through it now cause i kinda use it as a training ride for the ms150. i also have seen the city many times from the places covered by the route.

now when i did the 5 Boros ride in NYC, i think the milage was under 60. we saw a lot of the city, and i did it at a pace that was about 14-15mph. i was able to talk to friends and take in the city. it was one of the most enjoyable rides i have ever been on, mainly because i thought it was so cool that the streets were closed to vehicular traffic. going into it, i wished that the milage was greater, as i knew it would be relatively easy, being that they have NO hills there. but if you have never ridden on streets that were only open to bicycle traffic, and if you pass this up because "there aren't enough miles and it's not the same!", then you will be missing out. it is a whole different experience and it IS totally worth spending more time in the car to get to the ride than you would spend on your bike. hell, it took 8 hours each way to get to NYC, we lined up more than 2 hours before the event started, and the ride only took us about 5 hours with 30k+ other riders filling the streets. one of the best rides i have ever been on. and let's face it, the pgh marathon is like 26 miles and they see a whole lot of the city. you may not go up to mt washington, but you can do that on your own after the ride. i assure you, there is NOT a lot of traffic on sunday mornings.

I think the complaints are the exception not the rule. If you are happy with something you are unlikely to write in or make a comment, but if you are unhappy you'll write a two page letter. I think PP will be a success this year, I love the idea of car free. I believe people will come if it's 25 miles or if it's 125 miles car free or not.

Marko82, you're missing my point completely. Again, since the Bike-pgh took over the event they can do what they like. I'm not mad. It's just a statement of fact.

Sure, I "can" cycle into town. Why? I can also get up at 5am, put on my work clothes, focus on email for 30 minutes, etc on a day I'm off work. Why? Just because you "can" is not a logical explanation for "why".

I hardly want to enjoy the social activities including having a malt beverage after traversing some of the worst roads in the area to get to the event and riding a loop - knowing I then need to traverse those poor roads again to get home. BTW, I live significantly south. I'm in the SOUTH south hills - not in Allegheny county.

I really don't care about the transparency, and again, am not mad. This is not emotional. This is simply a logical observation and decision on my part. If there are no routes longer than 25 miles, some people - including myself - will not come. Period.

We can opine on how many people that is. We can debate on whether the changes will result in more "novice" people showing up than the other "long route" people that fail to show up (which I seriously doubt).

But make no mistake. To make a statement such as "I believe people will come if it's 25 miles or if it's 125 miles" is simply a false statement. There are already those here even on this site who have said they will not attend as a result - myself included. No malice involved. That disproves the statement that people will still come regardless of distances.

Let's get another thing clear. Some here have slammed WPW for their view. I've been associated loosely with them for years, and IMHO you won't find a more open, accepting, optimistic and cycling friendly group out there. To alienate that group - for the highly debatable purpose of totally changing pretty much every darned thing about a cycling staple of Pgh is certainly a very dubious move.

On another note - stefb - I've run the Pgh marathon. Many times, as well as running other marathons. I've also distance running on my own and with other people. I have enjoyed both. Now, given a choice between running a 3 mile closed route event in Pgh that I needed a 2 hour round trip commute, and running with a large group on a 10 mile route, guess which I would have done? The fact that the streets are closed is interesting, and certainly a positive for the total newby riders no doubt. I applaud that. However, it's not even remotely a consideration for me - and I suspect my friends. I could care less if cars are there. I ride courteously and safely, and am extremely accustomed to riding on public roads.

Edmonds59: You're missing the point - and you obviously have never ridden the longer route with many of these people. You also obviously have never ridden any/many WPW rides. If you think they are all hammers, out there pounding out the miles, you are so terribly wrong. It's actually the opposite. In fact, many racers often don't spend time with WPW typical rides because the pace is pretty calm and there is more talking going on than sweating most of the time. Even when it's a 75-100 mile ride.

Folks, you're all missing the point here. The longer route was an annual opportunity for cyclists to view all the different architectural and cultural areas surrounding Pgh. It was SCENIC (at least as much as urban riding can be called scenic). It was an "experience". Not a race. It wasn't a "fitness challenge".

My advice to those on this board is to step back, take a moment and think before posting and creating an "us vs them" culure where you alienate likely the largest group of cycling evangelists in this area. That you think about the "real why" people are posting that they don't appreciate this change. That perhaps you ask more about "why" instead of introducing your own bias and making assumptions that are clearly unfounded in many cases.

Just my 2 cents. Like I said, I'm not mad. If it's 25 miles, I won't be upset. I also won't be there. No bitterness. Just fact.

Excellent points StefB, I had similar experiences with the Montreal Bikefest a few years ago. 10 hrs drive to ride 32 miles. But it was awesome, Montreal, the capital of cultured urbanity (redundant?) in North America. The only drawback being that I went with a New Enthusiast who was all Har! about making good time. Bypassed artisanal cheese stands, wine sampling, not to mention some delightful cycling Quebecois women who I would have enjoyed chatting and soaking up that accent. Ohh, that accent. Sad, sad.

Also, I will hopefully be going to see the RAAM movie, I don't find it at all odd that I can enjoy watching the acheivements of others while simultaneously being aware that I Am Not A Racer.

Some of the awesomer folks on this board can ride 1,000 km brevets, ride across the state in a single shot, as well as enjoying riding a 5 mph Friday night fun ride, so it's fully possible. I have not fully appreciated the complete cyclist capabilities of those individuals until just now, so kudos.

"(at least as much as urban riding can be called scenic)" You do reveal a bias there, honestly.

I absolutley do not want to contribute to some Us v Them mentality. Apologies if I have done that in any way. And I fully accept that I don't well know the WPWers. Probably won't, based on the fact that on the Fall thing I left at the stated time, rode completely alone and came in after pretty much everyone else had put the bikes on the cars and gone home. I can ride alone in the boonies anytime I like. If I do a 10 mph pace, I am totally happy, I like to stop to read those history plaques, stop a few minutes to appreciate a lovely rural view, or look at birdies. Nothing personal, just not my cup o tea.

I don't see anyone criticizing WPW, just some of the things said on the forum.

I wasn't impressed with Pedal Pittsburgh the one year I rode it. I can ride the route anytime I want and not have to wait in line for water (if there was any) or have drivers pissed at groups of riders blocking traffic flow. This will be better. My wife will want to do it. My friends who don't ride often will want to do it.

All this over something that hasn't been announced yet.

edmonds59, your Montreal trip reminds me of when I did the Tour de Donut in Ohio a few years back. There were a few hardcore racers who did the whole course without eating any donuts, which seems to defeat the whole point...

Also, for context, note that the original message to the WPW list came about as a call for volunteers to help marshal Pedal Pittsburgh.

The WPW, as an organization, should be held distinct from the Yahoo group, just as Bike-PGH (the organization), and this message board are distinct.

I suspect everybody wants the same basic thing: an enjoyable cycling event in Pittsburgh. If there are a few changes (or bumps in the road) as the event transitions from the prior organizer, well, that's to be expected.

One typically doesn't buy a business (or in this case, an event) to run it exactly the same as it has always been done.

@slowclimber, I did not miss your point at all (in fact I mostly agree with you). I was offering assistance thinking you lived in Mt. Lebo or some such. But if your main goal is to ride around and look at the architecture and you don’t care about car free, by all means come into the city and do that. If you follow this board during Bike Fest you’ll find quite a few interesting rides. Again, I will miss the longer PP rides too, but there are many longer rides in and around Pittsburgh every week during the summer. Check out the WPW, MTCC & BP calendars, there is always a number of longer or faster rides going on.

I know I will ride PP at whatever the longest distance is - if it’s only 25 miles so be it. I’m sure I’ll pare off with a few other like minded riders afterwards and go for a post-ride ride - just like we did after the WPW Icycle Bicycle ride. One group rode out to New Ken, and another group just redid the loop, and some people put their bikes back on their cars and went home. Just because the “ride” is over doesn’t mean you have to stop riding.

SUGGESTION: if there is not a longer ride for PP, it would be nice if there was a mechanism in place to allow cyclist who wish to continue riding to meet-up. It could be as simple as a few signs placed in the parking lot with various distances (fast/slow) and cue sheets. You want to ride another 50 miles? Stand under the sign and take off when you feel you have enough people to make it sociable. These would have to be advertised as unsupported, but with all the Sheets, Co-Go’s etc. in the area that shouldn’t be an issue as long as people know that in advance.

reddan's first post said it all, we could always volunteer our time/resources instead of complaining. It's easy to complain it's hard to get off the couch and do something to work towards a goal.

All this over something that hasn't been announced yet.

This has never stopped the internet before.

@Brad Q. No, it was not intended to mean that the Bike PGH folks don't have standing. It was actually intended to mean that somebody from WPW who is more connected with local organizations should meet with the organizers. And, I'm glad to see that people will be.

My main question is about the value of closing roads at the cost of the longer routes. Isn't one of the major objectives of Bike PGH to promote bicycling as a sustainable alternative to car transportation, as well as recreation? It would seem that a big ride with other people ina supportive environment when the roads aren't closed would help empower new bicyclists to feel that they could do it again by themselves. That they don't need closed roads to get on their bike.

I think this was the beauty of the bicycle commuting days over the summer. I remember leading a couple of folks down into Oakland and them remarking that they had wanted to try bicycling to work but didn't know if they could ride in traffic by themselves.

I do hope that the new pedal pgh is a success and acheives Bike PGH's goal of increasing bicycling in the city. Clearly, Bike PGH knows something about doing this, since they've been doing a great job at it so far! However, I do think it is important to question decisions that seem counterproductive... especially when it something that you care about.

Also, I think that people need to recognize that it is possible to be serious about cycling as a sport AND also be involved in bicycle commuting activism, etc. You might notice that I have stayed in the top 10 highest commuting milages on the car-free calculator for the past year. And, I do it wearing bike shorts because it makes me more comfortable.

And, I will also make the disclaimer that I am not a dues paying member of the WPW. I just appreciate their weekly ride updates. I will volunteer to help with the event if my schedule allows.

Good points trabbit.

And this for sure: "Also, I think that people need to recognize that it is possible to be serious about cycling as a sport AND also be involved in bicycle commuting activism, etc."

Bike Pgh! isn't making any of this stuff up off the cuff, (not directly involved, but easy to assume) they are following a model that has been successful in city after city around the world. Started initially in Bogota, Columbia, Cyclovia, if I am correct - close some sections of city streets and just let people go out and play, without cars present. Then people naturally see how easy, fun, and useful the bike can be, they take the next step and want to work it into their days. People can make that connection themselves, but they need that nurturing baby step.

Ok, i admit I haven't looked at the yahoo board, and I haven't been able to ride in PP the last two years (but planning on it, in some form, this year). But I really don't get it.

People are talking like the goal of the new organizers (BPGH) is to eliminate the long rides, like "muahahahahaha, you shall all ride shorter distances at our bidding! muahahahhaha!!!!" There's gotta be a reason... maybe it's obvious or posted and I didn't read it. If there's a reason, and enough volunteers step up (like reddan suggested) to make the reason go away, then why wouldn't we be able to have a car-free shorter route and keep the longer car-sharing routes too? Or is the reasoning for the change part of the lack of transparency?

I'm having a "stupid" morning, though, sincere apologies if I'm using up good interwebs to ask a dumb question.

Maybe its time for more than one event of this scale and they can be different from one another. It would be great to have cycling in Pittsburgh at the point where TWO big rides are sustainable. The 5 Boros rides draws in a lot of people from outside New York...Pittsburgh could do that. Lots of people are becoming curious about the Burgh.

slowclimber - well, coming onto a message board you've never visited before and lecturing everyone about how they're "all missing the point" is an excellent way of creating hostility... maybe you should take some of your own advice.

Pseuda - that's what I was wondering too. Maybe there are valid reasons, I would love to hear bike-pgh's perspective on it. Brad's comment about how they're changing the event because that's what everyone else does is not very satisfying.

So, here's the chance to meet with Seth and the WPW to talk about it.

6pm, January 31st at Bike Pgh's office (3410 Penn Ave). Come in the back door (on Spring Way, says BikePGh and JustSeeds on the door), limited car parking, ample indoor bike parking.

Pseuda, maybe, I don't know. There's TOSRV over in C'bus that kind of takes the bulk of spring touring riders. But they do get 3,500+- riders on a weekend to Columbus. And it's Columbus, Ohio, for dog's sake.

Ohio did have, at one point anyway, as the number of self-identified "cyclists", members of bike clubs, etc. second only to CA. Pretty substantial. Ohio has so many organized rides it's ridiculous. But Pedal Pittsburgh has been in place a long time in it's current/other/long(?) form, and my perception is that not many Ohioans have been persuaded into coming over.

I never said the BikePGH is changing it "because that's what everyone else does" or anything even remotely like it.

Seriously, the BikePGH staff is pretty well qualified and the board of directors is stocked with smart, capable folks. The decision to purchase the event and make changes was not something that was done lightly with no thought. Over the past ten years BikePGH has proven to be a very capable organization, clearly with a plan of action that year to year has created a positive impact in this city.

Pedal Pittsburgh will rule even if it's not for you. Beginning of a new era.

BradQ, that's exactly why I'm thinking the logic must be good, but the change might not be unavoidable... too many negatives.

I'm just wondering what the logic is, and if Reddan's suggestion of volunteers to fill what might be a gap to keep the distance rides might do, or if there's something else that can be done.

So far the whole thing sounds an awful lot like a half a conversation that isn't over yet - not something to get too upset about yet.

Also I have completely and repeatedly failed to mention that I would LOVE to see a true Pittsburgh organized tour, rest stops, supported. One route, ride it or don't, 80 miles or so since around here that's about like an Ohio century. So I am in no way opposed to long rides. Somebody do it. I just don't think that's the way to increase ridership in the general population.

I think long rides, like 50, 60, 80 miles, with a lot of participants, is one way to increase cycling awareness in the general population. Increased awareness will help our cause. (if "bicycle rights" or some such can be a cause)

I'd be thrilled if one of my neighbors came on a ride with me, but I'd be even happier if two of them recognized that bicycles have a right to be on the road, understood safe passing, and kept an alert eye out for cyclists while driving even if neither ever got on a bike.

True, getting people on bikes probably will always make them better car drivers, but seeing bikes on the road will help too.

I passed a store today with a cutsy name, I don't remember it, but the smaller print on the sign indicated it was for "indoor cycling gear and clothing". A whole store just for indoor cycling. I bet those customers would go on 60 mile rides for the first time if the roads were closed to cars (I know that's not an option being discussed, but that's not my point). For any rule, you'll find a niche that breaks it.

I am so very glad that full on internet wankery discussions like this are so few and far between on this message board.

I couldn't even make it to the end of page one.

?

Just talkin.

Waddya wanna talk about?

Unfortunately I have a work meeting until 6 on the 31st but I'll try to make it even if I'm late.

Brad, I'm not sure if you're expressing your own opinions or speaking as a Bike Pittsburgh board member but either way you're not an impartial party. I have a lot of faith in the Bike Pittsburgh staff and board - they've done some great things and I hope they continue to do so. That doesn't mean that the membership is obligated to sit back and blindly support everything they do. I'm not even saying that I disagree, just that I don't have enough information.

@salty Brad, I'm not sure if you're expressing your own opinions or speaking as a Bike Pittsburgh board member

So a board member says the board of directors is stocked with smart, capable folks. ?

How reassuring!

You can read more about the board here.

http://bike-pgh.org/about/board/

Filled with people who ride their bike more than 5 miles at time too!

I've looked at those bios before. Fkn impressive.

I'd never seen the BoD bios. Holy sh*t that's an impressive bunch (no sarcasm)!

It's one of the reasons I typically trust what they're doing... not without being curious as to reasons or occasionally griping about lack of instant and pervasive dramatic improvements, but "benefit of the doubt" goes extra to BPGH for me. YMMV.

I think it would be awesome to have a 5 boros ride here. Or something like it. Wikipedia says we have 90 neighborhoods ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pittsburgh_neighborhoods ), so maybe if the ride hit a third of them, and repeated routes every three years, that would be neat. Or maybe hit 18 of them repeat every 5 years. I dunno. Maybe I'm equating apples and oranges and someone smarter can figure it out.

Salty, if you took my response as creating hostility, I humbly suggest you take a pill or get therapy. My "lecturing" was to clarify some conflicting viewpoints. Perhaps you would prefer that nobody disagrees with you? Would that create less hostility?

I'm confused. Perhaps you could enlighten me. I apologize if I somehow offended you by having a different opinion. My mistake.

In the more urban areas of Pgh, this was pretty much the last cycling event left of many that allowed an organized, relatively well attended, and varied terrain and distance tour of the area. It was really enjoyed by many, and in the opinion of many, helped to retain visibility of cycling in Pgh. I stated many times that it's not my decision to make as I'm not running the event (and have no desire to). I also stated clearly that eliminating anything longer than 25 miles won't make me angry. It does disappoint me, and eliminates any desire to partipate. Just doesn't ring my bell - nor apparently some others.

More specifically, if you look at my "missing the point comment" it was directed at previous posts indicating that WPW members and others wanting longer routes were focused on "riding fast" or "fitness" or some other such thing. So yes, I was correcting that as it was an invalid and incorrect assumption - as is your comment about "lecturing". As well as your unfounded assumption that I only recently viewed this forum. You do understand the difference between reading the posts and staying updated, and finally registering because for once you decide you want to post something, right?

Assumptions, Salty. Assumptions.

If the goal of Pedal Pittsburgh is to entice people to ride who normally don't ride on the streets then having car-free routes would seem to be a good idea (whether or not it does is another matter and will probably be dependent to some degree on the weather). I'm assuming that most of the people who would ride the 50 & 60 mile routes are seasoned riders and used to being on the road with cars. While it would be more relaxed to have 50-60 mile routes car free, even if there is no "official" 50 or 60 mile route you still have the option to ride anyway. I rode the 25 mile route last year but rode to/from Monroeville so I still got in a 55-60 mile ride.

This discussion is great. It shows that our message board is alive and well and there are many outspoken enthusiasts who care a great deal for Pedal Pittsburgh. Pedal Pittsburgh (PP) is a local tradition and BikePGH is proud to host it in 2012. I hope some light can be shed on this discussion with some info that I can provide.

The Community Design Center of Pittsburgh (CDCP) started PP in the mid 90s when they had to concern themselves with a biking schedule that included the Great Ride and the Thrift Drug Classic. Now that Lance has captured 7 wins, the Stillers wear 6 rings, and the Pirates.....well...let's not go there. Anyways, the CDCP chose to host the event in May to avoid the other two rides. In the mean time, PP grew while the other two rides died. But, the event was never moved from May and we went through many years of cold rain and even some snow.

BikePGH started BikeFest and it's settled into the warm month of August. We thought that a warm rain shower in August beat a cold one in May, and an August PP would make it the capstone to BikeFest.

PP also offered 6 different mileage options. BikePGH's goal for the ride is to remove as many barriers as possible to bring in the most amount of riders. The more riders we see, the more advocates we can bring into the fold. So, we decided to concentrate on a short route that almost anyone, small kids and first time riders can handle: a 4-5 mile route, while experienced riders could invite friends, spouses, co-workers, etc on the 25 mile route. 25 miles doesn't seem like a lot for hard core riders, but it will be daunting for new riders.

We are attempting to make both of these routes CLOSED TO ALL VEHICULAR TRAFFIC. Just like the marathon, we'll hire the police to shut down the roads so we can have them all to ourselves. Unfortunately, this is not cheap to do. We're expecting it to cost $50,000 - $100,000 just for road closure costs. This does not include insurance, staff, food, water, EMS, etc. This is a huge undertaking for BikePGH in our first year of hosting PP and we do not feel comfortable trying to shut down the roads for a longer route.

Understandably, riders that are used to the longer routes will be disappointed. I would be too if that was may favorite route. But, if you could, look at the situation this way:

- PP was dangerous. Almost half of the riders each year were brand new to the event. They were put onto the roads with traffic. How many of them were truly ready for this experience?

- The CDCP had made up their mind to NOT host PP in 2012 and asked BikePGH to take up the event. The CDCP did not want to see the event die. BikePGH also wanted the event to continue, but did not feel it was right to put so many new cyclists in traffic.

After all is said and done. I hope that the Wheelmen host a ride during BikeFest so that the higher mileage routes are kept alive. I also hope that the riders that enjoy the longer routes will share their skills and love for cycling with others by volunteering to help with the PP. We could see 5,000 riders attend PP this year. Will you help us create new advocates by volunteering and encouraging friends and co-workers to ride?

Please don't hesitate to call me at the office, 412.325.4334 or email me directly at seth@bike-pgh.org. Also, everyone is invited to the BikePGH office on the 31st of January at 6pm to discuss this event. Please come in the office's back door into our conference/bike parking area. It's on Spring Way and it says BikePGH and JustSeeds on the back door. Invite all that want to come.

For your quick reference, our address is:

3410 Penn Ave

Pgh, Pa 15201

Thanks for the information, Seth. That certainly answers most of my questions, especially the part about how PP was going to cease to exist without BP stepping in - which is something I suspected but did not know for sure, and certainly makes everything else much more understandable.

And to further tweeze out that point, it was not a hostile takeover with the intent to eliminate longer routes, as some comments have implied. Just the new management reorganizing it in the way they best see fit. Makes sense.

My question would be, will registration be required to ride the closed route, and what will be done about locals who aren't registered and decide to just hop in, will they be excluded by marshals?

PP was dangerous and while I absolutely loved doing the longer routes, I completely agree that cycling advocacy in this city has little to do with crushing 50 miles of hills. It's about people feeling comfortable and having a good time.

I will however miss being able to use this to warm up for the MS150.

Are riders going to be required to wear helmets?

I would love to be able to do this for once in my life

I don't think it was a good idea to take over pedal pittsburgh and then drastically change the format, but I'm definitely looking forward to a car-free event.

go seth!

Well at least the event will still happen

Seth, thanks for the info. The fact that CDCP was not going to run the event this year isn't all that surprising, though it is disappointing. I applaud you guys for taking over.

That being said, I don't necessarily agree about Pedal Pgh being "dangerous" and still don't understand the correlation between closed shorter routes AND non-closed longer routes. I simply don't subscribe to the idea that just because the shorter routes are closed to vehicular traffic, the longer routes must also be. This is partially becauce IMHO and experience, the majority of people on the longer routes are not the totally inexperienced people so they require less supervision.

I hope it goes well, but frankly it's still just not going to be on my menu. Being out there on the longer routes, enjoying the scenery, with lots of other cyclists (far far more than any WPW ride ever generates) was an annual event that we'll all miss. Trying to have the WPW recreate just a "portion" of it with far less resources just isn't even in the same ballpark.

I'll make one other point to consider. We can all agree that having closed roads makes it different, and quite possibly more safe for inexperience riders. However, it also has a negative effect on the perception of cycling. One thing that drivers hate even more than some cyclists delaying them is roads being totally closed for hours preventing any access at all. As a marathon runner, I know this to be true. Also, different "stages" or the marathon have different "windows" where roads are closed by section. I'm assuming that will probably happen here, meaning a more "timed" or "choreographed" scheduling of the event. I am not criticizing this, but am simply acknowledging it.

Anyway, thanks for the info Seth. Good luck with Pedal Pgh. I won't be there but hope it goes off well. I actually think it should be renamed. Perhaps that would have solved the controversy. Fact is, the Pedal Pgh is effectively gone, and there is a totally different event that happens to have the same name. I think just being up front about it would have eliminated confusion.

Also, for the record, the Pedal Pgh always as far back as I can remember required riders to wear approved helmets. Whether it was actually enforced on the routes I can't say, but registration clearly indicated (and you signed) awareness of helmets being required.

I'd like to ask another question of those who have stated that "pedal pittsburgh was dangerous".

What are the accident injury statistics for the pedal pgh in the past? I'd sure like to see some sort of evidence that supported such allegations. I'll be honest, I don't think it exists. I'm aware of one incident about 7 hrs ago on a downhill where an ambo needed to be called, but I witnessed it and it had nothing to do with an open/closed course, a vehicle, etc. It was just a pretty much freak accident and the rider (who was incredibly experienced and was riding safely) ended up fine. Does anybody know how many injuries/fatalities happened in any year of the Pedal Pgh? I'm not saying that a lack of incidents means everything is totally safe, but the event has been running for quite a while with a large number of participants. I would expect to see some correlation between attendance and incidents. If that's not the case, I humbly suggest that perhaps we're trying to solve a problem that does not actually exist.

I also was a bit surprised to hear that it was perceived as dangerous. To me it was always just like riding around town, but with a buttload more other bikes than usual. Which should theoretically be safer.

slowclimber, not sure about overall statistics, but I personally saw someone get hit by a truck on Butler last year. The driver "didn't want to cross the center line" (there was no on coming traffic) so thought it better to take out the cyclist instead.

I am not exaggerating... We were on the sidewalk fixing a mechanical problem at the time, heard the thud, helped the guy that got hit and witnessed the conversation afterward with the excuse from the truck driver. The cyclist was ok, but definitely shook up.

Changing an event like this is bound to win some new friends at the expense of some old ones. I am sure the smart folks on the BikePgh Board know what they are doing, and have performed their own cost-benefit analysis. Clearly they feel they will see a net gain with the changes they have made.

I think it is important to remember, without Bike Pgh taking on the event, there would be NO Pedal Pittsburgh. We ought to be appreciative Pike Pgh is continuing the event. If not for them, who would? As slowclimber noted "trying to have the WPW recreate just a "portion" of it with far less resources just isn't even in the same ballpark," which I guess means it is beyond their capacity. And outside of Bike Pgh and WPW, who is there? I'm pretty sure Pedal Pittsburgh is too big a chunk for PMTCC to chew.

So change is in the air. Maybe in time, the WPW or some other group will seize the opportunity to fill the void left by the removal of the longer route? Maybe we'll see an ad-hoc "extension" of the ride formed on a message board like this? It happens all the time here (see "It's Dark and the Weather Sucks Tuesday Night Ride" thread).

You mean to tell me that a bunch of wobbly cyclists riding 5 abreast on the road with vehicular traffic wasn't dangerous? They may be dangerous to each other even on a closed route, but wouldnt you agree that it is less dangerous when you dont have vehicles that you cant control coming up behind you? I think common sense says that when I ride on a bike trail that is closed to traffic, the chance of a car hitting me is significantly less than when I get back on the road with traffic that I cannot control, is that not correct?

Well at least the event will still happen

Indeed. It being in August will be pretty awesome for the celebration aspect and it won't interfere with the keg ride anymore.

stefb, I hardly think your characterization is the end all here. This is all a risk based decision making process. At some point, we are all at risk. You're more at risk when you get on the bike than if you don't get on it. In absolutely no post did I state that there was not some risk. The question is "how much". "Relative risk".

There are thousands of cycling events across this country every year which do not have closed courses. As a matter of pure fact, the overwhelming majority - almost to the point of exclusion - of non-competitive events such as this are not done on "closed routes". Your position seems to be then that all of them are unsafe, correct? That's how it's coming across at least.

My question was about actual results. There is certainly at least sufficient historical precedent to gather high level impressions of risk. I really don't care to debate with each other our own definitions of safe. I've ridden with cyclists on normal rides that I consider unsafe, but who have thousands and thousands of miles under their belt. I've also ridden with cyclists of relative little experience who are very safety focused. You can't remove all risk. So the question is how much is "acceptable". Further, is it truly necessary that because you want the "newby" short routes to be closed to increase safety that means there cannot be "open" long routes, which I think we would all agree would be selected by a far more experienced rider on average.

Stefb, I'll take it a step further. Completely honestly, some of the most unsafe cyclists I've ever seen in my life are those who routinely ride on the trails such as the montour trail. Not all, but a FAR FAR FAR higher percentage of those riders make my blood boil. No helmets. No awareness of how silently coming up behind pedestrians (many of whom have small children and pets) at speeds that do not belong on a shared trail can do to the human body. So, let's not digress into what is basically safe and what is not. There are unsafe acts by cyclists and around cyclists everywhere.

I'll say this. I think for the very shortest routes, it's a great idea to close the route to vehicles. I'm far less supportive on the longer routes, and I'd consider the 25 mile route long enough that I'd prefer it wasn't closed to be honest. On those routes, I'd prefer to have course marshals educating people as they ride about proper riding safety etiquitte, so we don't create those idiots then going out on public streets behaving exactly like they do on a closed road.

But like I said before, I'm happy that especially knowing that the event was going to be killed anyway - there will still be SOME sort of event. Even if I think it should have been renamed, as it is a totally different event in every single way except the fact that it still involves bicycles. It could just as easily have been called the thrift drug classic.

"Further, is it truly necessary that because you want the "newby" short routes to be closed to increase safety that means there cannot be "open" long routes, which I think we would all agree would be selected by a far more experienced rider on average."

It is a DIY world. I say, tap into that groundswell of support for the longer rides. Start a thread on a message board like this, agree on a route, make a cue sheet, email the cue sheet and make copies for people that show up, and voila! you now have a "long route option!"

Easy-peesy.

I totally disagree. It's not even remotely close at that point, and the "event" will be geared (such as the after ride stuff) toward times that will then exclude those "longer ride" people. Which will in effect make it no different in any respect than just doing a completely separate ride which doesn't cost riders an entry fee, etc.

What you're really saying is to just do the same thing that every single WPW ride does, meaning that the Pedal Pgh would have absolutely no intrinsic value beyond any other ride. Which is exactly my point. Again, I'm happy that Bike-Pgh is hosting an event. It's just that if WPW or anyone else is going to have to effectively do their own thing anyway, there is seriously diminished value.

We can do that 365 days of the year and get no value from "adding on" to a totally different event. Just my opinion. I have no problem with a different opinion.

What I'm really saying here is that there typically was some food, etc (though it normally ran out) at the end of the ride. Extending the routes without changing the start times of the SHORTER routes so that they all ended at around the same time will result in the longer riders not getting the "party" part at the end (unless they also do that on their own too). So, then other than donating money to the cause, what value is there? I'd rather just send a check to charity because honestly, at that point that's all it is.

Like I said, it's a DIY world, and there are a lot of seriously resourceful folks on this board. The Bike Fest rides that just organically emerged and coalesced into reality from this Board were really fantastic.

My guess is, if there really is a large enough group of people actually interested in having a "longer route" option as a (unofficial) part of Pedal Pittsburgh, it will come together. It won't happen on it's own, but it's really not hard to do.

Actually the most dangerous cycling behavior I've observed has been by roadies, apparently sponsored by European pro teams based on their kit, who shoot stop signs and red lights, and simply must go 25 mph on the jail trail to keep their pulse rate in the zone, who are so pro that the laws of man and physics don't apply. Not wobbly newbies. But that's OT.

I agree it's off topic. To clarify however, what I was trying to say is that per capita the number of "unsafe riders or acts" by "closed trail riders" such as on the Montour trail FAR outweigh the per capita unsafe road riders I know. I totally agree that it's terribly unsafe to both ignore traffic signals, and frankly don't think they should be on the trail doing 25mph either. But at least for the most part, those roadies on the STREET are putting themselves at risk. The unsafe riders on the trail (no vehicular traffic) are more of a hazard to others. I have little sympathy for unsafe riders getting in an accident because they were idiots. I have a major problem with unsafe riders hurting others.

My point however was that stefb was calling out safety issues, and they are everywhere. Having a closed course does not eliminate them, and I gave at least one argument where it might be better to NOT have a closed course and instead use the opportunity to educate people on riding etiquitte.

Atleastmykidsloveme,

I submit that there are factually enough riders with interest. Once again, you're comparing two different things. If it's going to be a DIY, then it has no necessary connection to Pedal Pgh. It's separate. You are making my point for me. Rides such as that exist every weekend of the cycling season. Check the WPW calendar. But typically they're not in more urban areas - for good reason. I'm speaking of the 45+ mile routes. It takes more than the resources that WPW can reliably and predictably provide to organize something like what the PP used to offer (or the Great Ride, or many others). It's far easier in rural areas, as well as safer to be honest.

And the bottom line point is to try and answer the question - if you're going to do it yourself anyway, why exactly would you try and somehow force it to be assocated with the PP? For the logistic reasons I mentioned before, that simply makes no sense that I can fathom. Do I think there may be an "unoffocial longer route"? Maybe. But it just doesn't make sense to me. Completely unemotionally. Just the way it is.

It doesn't matter to me either way. If I ride to the start, and then home afterwards, it would be about a 50-mile day anyway. I'm a "where there is a will, there is a way" kind of person. I was only trying to demonstrate there are options. I still think there are a lot of people out there who are doers, not complainers. It won't surprise me if an unofficial "longer option" emerges.

Edit: I will not feed you, slowclimber

Stop. Feeding. Troll.

Hmmm.... So those who disagree with your opinions and bring up valid facts and discussions are trolls. Nice.

cburch, your proposal is that everyone sing kumbaya, agree without discussion or different opinions, and reserve any concerns to themselves for fear of a less than harmonious board. Ok, noted.

Oh crap.

Either my troll-dar sucks, or I'm the troll.

Rats.

Ha, you don't know cburch very well!

Atleastmykidsloveme, I agree with you, and for many that's fine. If I rode to the event, did the event and rode back, it would be a good bit more than 50 miles and it would be on some roads that I simply don't want to be on riding a bike. Not the same for everyone, I understand. But let's also at least mention the pros and cons of the alternatives. It really does eliminate the "party" part of it. It's just really a self organized ride that happens to meet up with a different ride for the middle part. It's really not practical from where I live to be very honest. To be even more bluntly honest, the route to/from pgh from here is just not well suited for cyclists no matter how much we'd like it to be different. Anyway, I hope it works out, but let's at least be honest. There will be a measurable group that will have good reason to not participate this year. Hopefully for Bike Pgh there will be an offset by more novices who might attend, but I'm actually guessing that this will not be the case. YMMV.

My proposal is that anyone who says they can't ride 20-30 miles into the city because the roads are too crappy and/or dangerous but that it's easier and safer to organize a ride outside of the city and also that its stupid to close the roads once in the city for safety is purposely being an illogical jackass. And that someone who is presented with multiple solutions to the original problem and takes a big shit all over any of them because the only thing they want to hear is that everything will go back to being exactly the way it was is a big whiny fucking baby. Suck it up. Do something about the problem other than bitching or shut the hell up and move on.

I also propose that you seem incapable of posting without sounding like a condescending asshole. You might be a pleasant enough person in real life but your online persona comes off as a close minded know it all who plays the role of victim when they aren't getting everything their way. Charming.

Also, troll.

cburch - Wow! Dude, you are really off base. You really ought to watch your language and your attitude. And you ought to read up a little about LOGIC. If you would spend less time trying to pigeon hole others into what you THINK you want to hear maybe you would do a better job in reading comprehension.

My definition of jackass is somebody who attacks somebody else who already thanked Seth and wished the event well, but questioned the LOGIC of having no longer "open" routes even if you were going to have "closed" routes for the shorter distances. And somebody who at least wanted to dispell misconceptions such as:

1) WPW riders just want longer routes to "hammer" for "fitness"

2) Everyone lives in Mt Lebo or Squirrel Hill.

3) WPW or some other group has the means and resources to independently schedule a large, longer ride

So I propose that the first person I've seen on this board who behaved like a 12 year old emotionally challenge and immature baby is ALSO the only one calling people names or swearing. Look in the mirror, pal.

Totally trolls troll troll?

To those other than cburch here, who have participated in a rational dialogue which I think has value and merit, hopefully we all take away different perspectives and learn something here. In no way did I intend to be a "troll" contrary to the outburst by cburch. I would like to see more events in Pgh like back when we had the Great Ride, Sewickly, Roses, The Sugar Run, SABRE, Pedal Pgh, etc. So many are gone, and my guess is we all hate to lose them. It ticks me off that some people can't disagree without getting personal but emotions are everywhere I guess.

@ slowclimber I think it's time to stop. You said your peace and thats fine, but this is turning into something more than a friendly discussion. Cburch has earned respect on this board you have not. If you don't like the change don't ride PP. If you are riding stop and just enjoy it. It's time to for you to stop.

Ok no more troll...

Smurf?

Vikings.

Chris Tucker

Chris Tucker? I don't even know who that is...

Just out of curiosity, what time does the event start? If there is time to ride the extra miles before hand, then the after-party issue is solved. I can only speak for myself, but I have no need of closed roads, water stops, or roadside assistance (and I assume the same is true for most willing to ride the higher miles). Events like this are about the event and about the numbers involved, not the miles. Just my two cents. And frankly, I wouldn't consider it troll behavior but I totally agree about the coming off as a condescending ass part. It's easy to lose the point in a typed conversation.

Someone who talks a lot but doesn't say anything

Really? Daaaaaaamn!

puppies!

So, anyway, kumbaya.

One thing that hasn't been done is to recognize the wonderful thing that CDCP did by running this thing for all the years they did. They are not a large organization with enormous resources, and not even related in any way to cycling, but recognized the benefit that cycling could have to a healthy city. Huge thanks. And keep in mind, the PP mission was always to contribute to the betterment of the city, not to provide a cycling event. New PP keeps to the mission.

Also, something I just can't let float, the huge misconception that it is somehow inherently safer to ride rural roads than urban. I am not the guy to go data mining that one, but I believe that is an assumption that can't be supported by facts.

Some of these other rides that were mentioned, "Great Ride, Sewickly, Roses, The Sugar Run, SABRE,", I have not even heard of some of these, it might be useful for someone with some knowledge of these to assemble some information - the nature of the ride, who organized them, how long they ran for, etc, and possibly theorize why they fell to the wayside, as a means of assessing ways to succeed going forward. I suspect many were driven by individuals, and when those individuals lost the energy, so did the events. Would be good to know. We now have an organization that plans to be here a while, so such events won't be "individual dependent".

Stop using logic and being proactive bill. It's not allowed.

:o

Speaking of dangerous the same cyclist crashed into me twice at the last PP. After the second time she hit me I told her when we get home your buying pizza, giving me a back rub, and watching Big Trouble in Little China with me.

in my house "back rub" is code.

So, she had to crash into you twice to get your attention? Typical dude.

Back rub is code in my house also. And yes I am typical, she still won't watch the movie

its code in our house too. code for "i'm about to fall asleep and accuse you of not rubbing my back at all when i wake up tomorrow."

edmonds, I was curious about those rides too...

Sugar Run Bike Ride Fundraiser

Date And Time

9/17/2006

9:00 AM

Event Description:

Watchful Shepherd USA is a child abuse prevention program. This is our fall fundraiser 15 mile, 25 mile and Metric Century Bike Ride through Washington County and it starts and stops at the Peters Township Recreation Center.

Sewickly is I think this one: http://www.deenasportfolio.com/teli/tourdesewickley.html

I think the Roses is this one:

"The Thermo Fisher Scientific 65 Roses Ride offers a variety of cycling courses for both the novice and experienced cyclist. The 65 Roses Ride that starts and ends at Settlers Cabin Park provides three scenic course options including a challenging 64-mile course followed by a party for the event with SAG support provided by TREK of Pittsburgh. For information about sponsorships, registration, or donations please contact Cheyenne Warriner by calling xxx.xxx.xxxx"

SABRE: "SABRE 2001 (canceled) is a bicycle tour of southwestern Pennsylvania, and in particular the small rural and farming communities southwest of Pittsburgh. Cycle SABRE and see western Pennsylvania's orchards and fields filled with autumn's red, orange, and yellow trees while the October skies are still clear and a fresh breeze fills the air. SABRE consists of three alternate routes for cyclists of all abilities – a challenging metric century (65 miles), a shorter but still hilly 35 route, and a gentler (but not flat) 15 mile ride. Join 1,000 other cyclists for the eighth annual SABRE!"

Those are all rural except Sewickly, all have nice long distance options.

I think an independently organized long run on PP day would be nice - I'd imagine it would feed off the party atmosphere. Depending on start times, an early start could be a nice way to kick things off, depending on when they're closing the streets. I'd only be concerned, if I were organizing or riding (both beyond me), that people who wanted to do the long ride might have trouble with intersecting routes and access if they didn't want to do the short ride.

And if it's so super successful this year that they make all their money back, maybe supporting a longer "open to traffic" ride might be in the cards for next year. The opportunity for improvement is there, and BPGH is fully capable of learning and growing the event.

I think it'd be nice to bring back some kind of Thrift Drug Classic kind of thing - I remember those, I'd never ride in one, but I'd love to watch again. It was cool having a world-class race in town.

Good research, ej!

The problem with a long course ride concurrent with the short closed course ride - and I am completely surmising here - is, I believe the hope is, that more experienced cyclists would participate in the short course ride as marshalls or ride mentors to newbies, maybe for one day give up the need for their own distance ride as a means of giving back to and building cycling among the general population. Or just chill and build "community" for a day. This may to too much to ask of people who are solely concerned about their own mileage/speed/fitness accomplishments (trying..to..be..minimally..snarky..so..hard.)

I'll by that.

At the same time, when I was running more seriously, though there were lots of 5k for charities that I supported, I absolutely abhor the 5k distance. I'd rather do a half marathon or a 10k, or independent long training run, or just stay home. If the parallel holds, I can't blame the distance people for being seriously put out. It's another nice long supported ride in the area gone - the offer of a beautiful closed "short" ride, if it appeals as much to them as a nice closed rolling 5k would to me, I totally get the ire. But a fun run or walk without a race, I'd do that, so maybe it's a perspective thing. Change is hard no matter what kind it is.

It'll get sorted out.

@edmonds59

Well, The Thermo Fisher Scientific has a biking team with budget they are free to use as they what. But the team should wear company sponsored biking attire and all events should care TFS logo as a being sponsor. I know because I've tried to create a similar team at the place I used to work (we were at the same building in Robinson), so I've contacted the captain and have talked to people a lot. Unfortunately the guy who was main "moving power" left the company in 2008 (or 2007?). As far as I know team still exists but activity cooled down.

As per concurrent run -- usually (like Tour de Montour) century and 44 mile participants starts 30 minutes earlier, then 25 and 12 mile, then 30 minutes later 6 mile participants. This is in case if all participants share the same route.

Marshalls pretty often end up with more distance then any other participants due to fact that they are cycling forward and back.

I had the impression that SABRE (which was supported by Thermo-Fisher) faded and then came back as the Thermo-Fisher 65 Roses.

"Marshalls pretty often end up with more distance then any other participants due to fact that they are cycling forward and back."

That would seem to be a draw. I would volunteer to be a on-bike marshall, carry some tools, pump, water, help folks with whatever arises.

Join us at the BikePGH office tomorrow evening, the 31st of January at 6pm to discuss PedalPGH and the longer routes. Please come in the office's back door into our conference/bike parking area. It's on Spring Way and it says BikePGH and JustSeeds on the back door. Invite all that want to come.

For your quick reference, our address is:

3410 Penn Ave

Pgh, Pa 15201

Anything interesting from the meeting?

Wow, crickets. Or is this being discussed somewhere else.

Nothing terribly surprising or unsettling; Seth gave a good overview of the factors leading up to CDCP deciding to unload the event, Bike-PGH picking up the torch, and some of the hopes for the future of the event.

As regards history, what I took away was this:

1) CDCP did not want to run the event any more.

2) The city was concerned about the size of the event.

3) Per 2, there were going to have to be changes involving the safety of the routes even if CDCP had kept running it.

4) Bike-PGH saw this as an opportunity to create an event that can rapidly grow over the next few years, by starting with a reasonable goal of a car-free moderate ride and growing it from there.

I'm sure there was other stuff I've forgotten, but my notes are not nearby. Lots of discussion of different volunteer opportunities, both before and during the event; discussion of potential dates, the joys of working with the city to get permits, close roads, and get police presence at intersections; etc., etc.

'Twas a small meeting; eight people all told? Everyone there seemed positive, or at least restrained themselves from hurling epithets and accusations of ruining the event.

@ reddan thanks for the update.

Oh, and since a lot of local riders used Pedal Pittsburgh as their final checkout ride before the late spring/early summer charity rides, the WPW may try to pull something together for that now-vacant time slot.

...and they all lived happily ever after.

Thanks, reddan!

@ejwme < group hug >

Thank you to all that attended the meeting. We're continuing to work with the city to modify the event for 2012 and hope to share details soon. In the meantime, thank to everyone that has offered to help out. There will be plenty of chances to volunteer and spread your love for cycling.