BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I've been seeing these around lately and had no idea what they were.

Looks like a grown up Little Tikes bike.

Yeah, I've seen a ton of these in Oakland. They seem to be really fast - able to keep up with traffic on Fifth Avenue, anyways.

I saw one of these last week and was wondering what it was. I was climbing the hill to Trees Hall and it went right past me easily doing 15mph. As alternative transportation I really like these. But I don't think they are bikes. I think they are more akin to electric mopeds or scooters and should be licensed and treated as such.

The video in the linked article says they can do 25mph, so I agree with @Marko82. I'd hate to see them on the sidewalks, but for some this might get them out of their cars.

20 mph, not 25. Their web site says "Federally limited all-electric speed of 20 mph". So I guess the feds don't mind if you go over 20 mph by pedaling.

I'm curious to know how much they weigh. Didn't see that on their web site.

@Steven - do you know how that 20 mph limit is applied? There is an all electric motorcycle called "Zero". Is this just a classification issue? So if they called it a motorcycle? btw: The Zero has a top speed of 88 mph and 75 mph "sustained".

Pretty cool. Oddly the prototypes don't even have racks, though. Getting just your own carcass around town, even Pgh, is relatively easy. I really think once they get the technology sorted out, they need to do a cargo bike version. That's where you could really start to replace cars on the streets.

These guys should get permission to do the DD on one of these as publicity. That would be something.

If this thing can climb Negley, good. If it can climb Federal, great. Now if it can climb FedEx Drive in Moon after a 16-mile trip from McCandless, there's a market for these things.

@ edmunds Getting just your own carcass around town, even Pgh, is relatively easy.

That would depend on the size and composition of said carcass, wouldn't it? I mean, zombies such as myself have to stop and eat a few brains on the way up 18th Street.

You're right though about cargo. To me, a "serious" cyclist is one who goes to the grocery store on his bike. The makers could plan for that.

@edmunds These guys should get permission to do the DD on one of these as publicity

That would be great.

The article says the PEVO can travel about 30 miles on a full electric charge . The DD is about 55 miles. I've heard that there's some vertical rise on that ride.

So, that would exclude many of my zombie/geezer brethren. No potatoes.

With these motor things, I worry about safety.

Bicyclists often go 25 mph, but they rarely average that while out doing errands.

People that average over 10 mph or so, usually have a lot of experience under their belt. People who average 25 mph around Pittsburgh are usually named "Chew."

The pathetic fashion accessories we call bike helmets are essentially nothing at 25 mph. Maybe more protection than a knit hat. Maybe not.

I've seen guys on electric bikes - going around corners on sidewalks at maybe 15+ mph with no pedalling.

I personally go on the sidewalks a lot on weekend nights, but I am slow, ever so cautious, and usually courteous, too. Newbies on motor toys might not be so careful.

I'm guessing that if these things are legally "bicycles," and they catch on, enforcement of traffic laws for all bicyclists would get draconian.

I'd personally rather not see electric motorbikes on bicycle trails and park paths. Electric wheelchairs strike me as fine, though, so maybe I'm a little arbitrary on this.

@Steven - do you know how that 20 mph limit is applied?

Here's what Wikipedia says about it:

Defined

The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) Code of Motor Vehicle Safety states that electric bicycles and tricycles meeting the definition of low-speed electric bicycles will be considered consumer products to be regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) in the same manner as ordinary bicycles, and are not considered motor vehicles under U.S. DOT and NHTSA regulations.[22][23]

In conformance with legislation adopted by the U.S. Congress defining this category of electric-power bicycle (15 U.S.C. 2085(b)), CPSC rules stipulate that low speed electric bicycles[24] (to include two- and three-wheel vehicles) are exempt from classification as motor vehicles providing they have fully operable pedals, an electric motor of less than 750W (1 hp), and a top motor-powered speed of less than 20 miles per hour (32 km/h) when operated by a rider weighing 170 pounds.[25] An electric bike remaining within these specifications will be regarded simply as a bicycle for purposes of federal law. While federal law determines whether a low-speed electric bicycle meets applicable safety and manufacturing requirements, it does not preempt state and local jurisdictions from enacting their own laws governing the operation of such motorized bicycles on public streets and roadways.[26] The legislation enacting this amendment to the CPSC is also known as HR 727.[27]

[edit] Use

Where federal funds have been used in the construction of bicycle or pedestrian paths, electric bicycles (defined as "any bicycle or tricycle with a low-powered electric motor weighing under 100 pounds, with a top motor-powered speed not in excess of 20 miles per hour" (23 U.S.C. § 217(j)(2)) ) are not permitted unless state or local regulations permit. Title 23, U.S. Code § 217(h)(4).[28]

...

Pennsylvania

State law defines a motorized pedalcycle as a motor-driven cycle equipped with operable pedals, a motor rated at no more than 1.5 brake horsepower, a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 cubic centimeters, an automatic transmission, and a maximum design speed of no more than 25 miles per hour.[67] Subchapter J of Publication 45 spells out the vehicle requirements in full.

As of 2008 a standard class C license, proof of insurance, and registration (annual fee: $9.00) are required for operation of any motorized pedalcycle in Pennsylvania.

The definition was clearly written with gasoline-powered pedalcycles in mind. The requirement of an automatic transmission is troublesome for those who just want to add an electric-assist motor to a bicycle, for almost all bicycles have transmissions consisting of chains and manually shifted sprockets. The registration form asks for a VIN, making it difficult to register some foreign-made ebikes. The fine for riding an unregistered electric bike is approximately $160.00 per event as of 2007.

So it seems there are multiple definitions and more than one top speed (assuming Wikipedia's info is still current -- I didn't check current law).

FYI, the makers spell PEV0 with a zero, not an o. The P-G has it wrong.

I really like the idea of assist bikes in Pittsburgh because of the limiting factor of terrain. But I'd agree that a proliferation of these types of mopeds and there will be responding legislation. Another town I lived in had made all those gas or electric scooters illegal. They made too easy and untracable of a get-away vehicle for criminal riff raff, not to mention the possible traffic hazards mentioned above.

Only experience with one was at the intersection of Schenley and Forbes. I was slowing down to yield to traffic, one of these blue flashes zips by on my right and continues on.

internal 3-speed hub could squeeze a few more velocities out of the power plant.

I like the stokemonkey approach where the motor drives the crank, so you have the use of all your gears. I gave some thought to building a Big Dummy which would have been an awesome hauler - very pricey though (and apparently no longer available

Only experience with one was at the intersection of Schenley and Forbes. I was slowing down to yield to traffic, one of these blue flashes zips by on my right and continues on.

I had a very similar experience with an electric-assist rider turning right from Bouquet Street onto Forbes Avenue outbound. I was pretty far over towards the curb, waiting for the light to change, pedestrians to cross, and/or the car in front of me to turn, when the rider whipped around the corner on my right, at something pretty close to full speed.

I guess I'm glad to see these out there, but like Marko82 said, I don't think they should be treated as bicycles. This feeling is reinforced by the fact that in the handful of times I've seen them, I've never seen the rider pedaling.

At the risk of sounding snooty or something, I'll echo Mick's comments, hoping that these remain a category apart from human-powered bicycles. They may be fine on Fifth Avenue, but I feel uncomfortable thinking about them on cross-campus walkways or places like the Jail Trail.

Got an interesting email from my state rep Adam Ravenstahl today:

"Clarity needed on electric bicycle law

Owners of bicycles that have an electric helper motor have found themselves in a Catch-22 lately.

Some in our area have been ticketed for failing to have a license plate. But state law prevents them from obtaining a license plate because electric bicycles are not issued a vehicle identification number.

That's why I have introduced legislation, House Bill 2216, that would recognize traditional bicycles and those with electric helper motors as bicycles, which do not need a license plate. Florida has enacted similar legislation.

I'm hopeful the Legislature will act quickly so we can clear up this issue and residents who choose to use this safe, environmentally friendly mode of transportation can continue to do so.

While this legislation may not directly impact you, I want you to know it came about from a conversation with a local businessman who sells these bicycles. I'm always eager to hear from my constituents. Please do not hesitate to contact me or my staff if we can be of assistance with any state-related issue."

What do people think?

I should write to your legislator, I guess.

I would want there to be an exceptionally low top speed on electric motor vehicles for them to be considered bicycles. Like maybe 12 mph. Maybe 10.

Even though regular bikes go faster than that on most downhills, cyclists that average 12 mph typically have some experience and are not, say, cruising up the sidewalk.

I'd say there should be a clear dividing line in law between bicycle-like vehicles and motorcycle-like vehicles, with no two-wheeled vehicles left in some impossible middle ground like that.

The division might involve maximum horsepower, vehicle weight, maximum speed, or some combination. Not sure about that part.

I found a page on the bill, but not its text.

The city's existing policy (PDF) on using motors on the trails has reasonable arguments for each of the restrictions it makes, and is worth reading.