BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

my reply in the other thread should have gone here too. That was, re connecting the bottom of the Junction Hollow trail with the Bridle Trail. Didn't one of those imaginative races go up this route?

The only problem I see with the Schenley-Jail connection is that it isn't really legal where it goes over the railroad tracks, so it can't appear on maps.

I think the resources necessary to make an official crossing there are simply not worth the effort.

I'm thinking that we would need a bridge across the tracks to make it official and a ramp on either side to get to the bridge. I'd rather the money for that be spent on more worthwhile things.

If there were going to be a track crossing put in somewhere, I would prefer it to the duck hollow trail or between the SS trail and Beck's run.

Mick

Mick

I'd like to see some sharrows on neville too

I agree that making a track crossing there seems unlikely, but what about a "road diet" for 2nd ave? Get rid of one of the traffic lanes, push out the jersey barriers to make room for a bidirectional bike lane.

we've been talking about this for awhile. the org friends of the riverfront are really the ones who maintain the trail system, and deal with any changes. We share an office with them, so often tell them our opinions and ways to make things better.

things like getting to the trails on the streets is more our terrain, so keep the ideas rolling!

but back to the situation at hand. railroad companies are extremely anal about people crossing the tracks. they'd rather never have it. doesn't mean it can't be done

i don't really think making a track crossing on the back side of a parking lot is the solution...

where is this bridle trail?

has anyone ever looked for a trail connecting to Swinburne street at the back of that park n ride lot or whatever that place is at the end of the jail trail?

a decent bike lane on 2nd ave would definately take care of it... this includes a safe passage through that intersection too...

are those RR tracks in use?

Second Ave. could use it, as there's really only room for one lane in spots, but people drive like there's two (scares the beegeezus out of me).

The only problem I see is the area right in between the intersection with the Hot Metal Bridge and Bates (?) St. I think it's Bates, or whatever street heads up into Oakland. That backs up like crazy during rush hour. Maybe there's a way to hook it into Eliza Furnace/Hot Metal Bridge bike way?

i was thinking the bikelane would only go from parking lot to the park, not all of second ave... there are access points onto the jailtrail throughout the road.

I ride from the jail trail to the hollow very regularly during the evening rush hour. It's a choice of three deathtraps: going over the tracks, biking on the road and making the left, or using the barriered lane.

That lane just isn't wide enough to safely support riding, and yet I see people riding in it all the time (and taking the corners too fast to actually stop if there's someone there), so I totally avoid it.

Going over the tracks is a PITA because there isn't a good walkable trail there, and I have a bad knee that gives me problems when I try carrying my bike down the hill on the other side.

That leaves taking the road, which is what I do. That works pretty well, except that at rush hour, I pretty much have to wait for the light to change to create a break in traffic to make the left.

This is #1 on my personal list of places that I wish had some kind of bicycle improvement. Expand the path behind the barriers, create sharrows, install a traffic light - anything would be an improvement.

For Trails:

I'd like to see the Duck Hollow Trail extended in both directions. As the Carrie Furnace site gets developed, I hope that the trail will be included. The master plan has a trail on it, but the master plan also has a bunch of things that'll probably never happen, such as a tramway.

The trail is almost there. Right now you can take what used to be a road [Braddocksfield Ave] along the Carrie Furnace site and follow a railroad service route to Duck Hollow.

On the other end of things, Duck Hollow Trail ends abruptly underneath the Glenwood Bridge. Unfortunately, there is an active railroad line with several tracks splitting off there. I don't know if all of these are active, but this could pose some difficulty in continuing the trail up to the jail trail. However, beyond that switching point lies the old mill, so I imagine a trail could easily be built there once the areas is developed. The Hazelwood site receives the dirt from the North Shore connector project to level the ground and create enough dirt to lay down sewage, storm, and other pipes. While I'm not sure what the plans are beyond that, I know that they want to develop the area.

Streets:

In Braddock, it appears that a local railroad line used to run behind Braddock Ave, near Halket & Woodlawn. Most of the rail has already been removed. It'd be nice to have this developed or putting some sharrows on Braddock Ave.

As Mick mentioned, connecting SS trail to Becks Run would be great. While we're at it, sharrows on Becks Run would be great. The 'sidewalk' is abysmal there and basically unusable, usually overgrown and missing pieces of concrete. Furthermore, Becks Run is a road where people drive really fast and it's been an area of police enforcement of the speed limit. So if striping or sharrows would have the potential to slow down cars, I think the police would be all for it. I believe Becks Run is owned by Baldwin Borough? They own that and a small strip of land along the river. Having Becks Run be bike friendly would open access to Carrick, North Baldwin, and Mt. Olvier residents to the SS trail.

I haven't been over to the Northside recently, but with the redevelopment of Federal St and North Ave, this could be a good time to push for sharrows.

Moving further outside the city, there's some issues with the Penndot bike routes. Is there any way to 're-align' routes? I live in Beaver Falls and bike route 8 goes Northeast from Beaver Falls, through Ellwood City to Portersville on Route 488. I've taken this road and it's a miserable road to ride. There's no shoulder, there's some reallllly steep climbs, and the speed limit is 50 but most people drive 65+ on it. If I ever ride North East, rather than taking that route I follow Old Route 18 up to New Castle and head east from there. It's a much easier route with fewer hills and crazy drivers.

Also on Route A, going from Beaver to Ambridge area is a death wish. Route A follows Route 51, with cars going 60-70mph. While two lanes, I still don't feel comfortable riding it. Unfortunately, on this stretch there are few options, with steep hills on both sides of the Ohio. The other option is to take side roads that follow parallel 65 through Baden and Freedom. There's a snag at Conway though, where the hill presses up against 65 and there's no longer side roads. It's either walk along an overgrown (and sometimes nonexistent) sidewalk or attempt to draft a semi and pedal your heart out for about 2 miles. I don't know what the solution is for this, but right now having Route A run on 51 seems like an accident waiting to happen.

imakwik1: that's what i was wondering, actually...[re: where the trail would end]

I think the SS Trail would be easier to extend than the other side minus that portion right before the Glenwood Bridge with the stinky junkyard. However, I would love to be able to ride by the river all the way to Braddock without having to switch sides ...and see the Furnace on the way to boot.

How about the blind turn near pnc park. It is a good place for a bike to bike collision. A few warnings painted on the ground might slow people down.

Greenbike,

I certainly agree with you that SS trail is almost there. Extending the trail on the north shore (opposite of the SS Trail) opens up some neat possibilities. On the Friends of the Riverfront Trail Map (http://www.friendsoftheriverfront.org/map), there's a proposed trail connecting Duck Hollow Trail to Frick Park. This opens up a lot more access to the Duck Hollow trail and will necessitate an extension of it, or at least a way to connect to the trails on the south shore of the Mon.

Another interesting development is the Pittsburgh to Harrisburg greenway, following an old canal. In the Pittsburgh map (http://www.alleghenyridge.org/greenwaybook/11X17%20maps/pitt_11x17.pdf), they propose a connection from Braddock to Murrysville. This new trail would then connect to the canal route all the way to Harrisburg (and I imagine eventually Philly). So not only would extending the trail along the north side of the Mon allow for easier access, it opens up a lot more opportunities for communities throughout the city.

#1: I agree that something needs to be done about legal methods from getting from Jail Trail to Schenley. I routinely jump those tracks (which are live btw), applying the Safety Trumps Legality rule. It's a lot easier not to get hit by a train than not to get hit by a car on 2nd Ave or not to cream some 9-year-old in the legal-but-blind chute.

#2: Connect Duck Hollow with 2nd Ave via a switchback structure over the tracks by the Glenwood Bridge. Attached to the bridge, in fact. Those tracks are live, too, but much busier and the trains faster than the line going up into Oakland. Definitely don't jump those.

#3: I've posted elsewhere that we need legal status through the Wabash Tunnel, owned but not used by the Port Authority of Allegheny County.

#4: In West View, adding sharrows to Center Ave going toward Bellevue would not seem difficult. The problem is in Bellevue itself, where the streets are much narrower.

#5: I'd like to see a nicely laid out path connecting Bellevue with Downtown. Calif-Benton-McClure-Orchlee-Shadeland-Woodland-Stayton-Hodgkiss-Brighton is my usual path. Flat(ish), no traffic.

#6: We should improve signage. One day I was trying to get to the 16th St Bridge from the NShore Trail, and went a couple hundred yards past it before I realized where I was. I can only assume that someone who doesn't have the area memorized would have even more trouble. Getting TO the trail FROM the 16SB would be helpful, too.

That's enough for one post.

The Jail Trail by the north end of the Hot Metal Bridge to Duck Hollow and beyond to Rankin and Braddock has been in the works for a number of years. It's just a matter of time,(but who know when), they plan on constructing this trail.From Braddock it will connect to Murrysville and Trafford and will hit the Westmoreland Heritage Trail and Harrisburg.Let's hope it's in the near future,although I have my doubts.

CMU has that old hazelwood ltv site, where the robot place is now. from what i understand, they are very interested in creating some sort of trail access through there.

#1: I agree that something needs to be done about legal methods from getting from Jail Trail to Schenley. I routinely jump those tracks (which are live btw), applying the Safety Trumps Legality rule. It's a lot easier not to get hit by a train than not to get hit by a car on 2nd Ave or not to cream some 9-year-old in the legal-but-blind chute.

Me three! I use 2nd avenue in the morning and the "trail/chute" homeward bound. I don't mind slowing down for a minute to avoid a collision but the route is just such an afterthought. I think (though i could be wrong) there are a lot of state/federal laws that come into play if you try to cross an active railroad right-of way not to mention costs. But it seems like the city could do a better job with the connection at 2nd avenue. It's full of dirt (or mud if it's raining) and the turns are sharp and narrow. Can't they be realigned slightly? Maybe widended a bit? It seems like there is room in the road for another 8 inches. I know the sign says "Walk Bikes" but no one is going to do that. Can we get a mirror? I ring my bell like mad (only place I ever even use it) but if there are a lot of cars or buses going by you can't hear it.

i don't mind using "the chute" and slowing down but the second or third time i did it i got hit by a runner zoned out on their Ipod... never again... i'm more worried about idiots hitting me and getting hurt than someone hurting me.

Just to check, I rode from Neville down through the hollow to 2nd Ave yesterday. I took the street. I had a car on my tail, so gunned it coming out of the underpass. I found myself going too fast to make the corner to go up to the trail and had to bail, bumping up onto the far curb.

The last time I went through the chute from EFT to hollow, I didn't run anyone over (I was actually following someone else, part of either a Critical Mass or Tippy Top ride #1, I forget which), but a youngish (11?) girl coming the other way, seeing oncoming riders, lost her balance and crunched into the wall.

There's gotta be a better way to handle bike traffic here. The chute isn't wide enough to support two-way traffic, and the street isn't safe, either direction.

Yeah, I tend to take the street inbound as well but as you said making that corner is tough. And I've scraped against the barrier in the chute once or twice myself going the other way, not pleasant... In the chute I ride as slow as possible and let out a loud whistle before going around the 2 blind corners but I see people flying through there all the time, which scares the crap out of me.

It sounds like a fair number of people agree the connection is a big problem - so who should we be writing letters to?

Actually, the scariest bit for me is the non-barrier-ed sidewalk. Mix together people standing at the bus stop with headphones on (so they can't hear you) with buses whose bumpers actually extend over the curb when they turn and you have a perfect recipe for disaster.

Regarding the development of the trail along the Carrie Furnace, I was looking at the Steel Valley Trail Council website and they mentioned creating a trail loop on both sides of the Mon and on the Glenwood Bridge and Rankin Bridge (http://www.steelvalleytrail.org/trail.htm). I know they're doing a full overhaul of the Rankin bridge, will there be bicycling lanes or sharrows?

The chute on 2d avenue is my biggest peeve with Pittsburgh trail development. Before the trail was constructed, I used Greenfield Ave to 2d Ave for my commute to work, and it wasn't too bad. I had to take the lane going under the railroad, but I could get over to the right and let the maniacs blast down 2d ave as soon as I got around the corner. Then the city put those jersey barriers up, and now I have two choices, both of which are worse than before.

Anything that says "cyclists must dismount" is not a bike facility, by definition.

Traffic signals there would be tricky, but not impossible. The way I heard it from the mayor was that traffic signals wouldn't do anything for pedestrians, so they built the chute to create a walkable connection.

Ok, fine, but it's not a bike facility.

Here's a potential solution. Seems to me it would be do-able to extend the Jail Trail just 100 yards or so, more/less in the vicinity of the portajohn, just to get over the overpass, then drop down to street level outside the CMU-Robot gate. Then add a companion traffic light on -that- side of the underpass, tied to the existing set, with a well marked push-button to initiate a ped/bike-crossing phase that holds all car traffic in all directions for 20-30 seconds. That would allow Mommy Biker and 7-, 10-, and 14-year-old Bikers, to safely get from Greenfield to trailhead. Those of us who don't mind dealing with traffic can just get in traffic and make the left under the underpass.

If you want to see an "H"-shaped intersection with a signaling setup like this, look in Ross Twp at heavily traveled Perry Highway, 3-Degree and Sewickley-Oakmont Roads, and Lombardy Drive and Graham Road, two lightly traveled local streets. The Willi's Ski Shop is in one part of the "H", a BP gas station in the other. As rotten as all these streets are to bike on, the intersection works pretty well, really.

Edit: I should add that Perry/3Degree doesn't have the hold-all-traffic button, but it does do a nice job of letting you safely make the left-right or right-left through the H.

maybe that tunnel borer thing that they used for the north shore extension

i vote for underground tunnel into panther hollow lake... some sort of sweet floating path on the other side

maybe that tunnel borer thing that they used for the north shore extension

I think they sent it back to Germany.

How about a zipline from Schenley?

I am psyched that the city is putting in bike lanes.

But I think a little more thought on their part could go a long way. For instance the lanes they put in on forbes ave between beachwood and braddock are nice, but they end abrubtly and force you in to traffic. A curb cut at the end of the trail would make it so much safer. In the morning when I head up the hill towards Squirrel Hill I have had a few too many cars get too close because of the high speeds and how the lane just ends and the road shifts in to it with no shoulder for you to duck in.

But overall I am very happy with the progress!

-Joe

joe, when you see that lane is about to end, look over your shoulder, wait for a clear spot, signal and move left about a foot. If you need to see an example of how to do this, I'd be happy to show you, or one of the other regulars from the Regent Square area can.

I spent a few minutes studying the "birds eye view" at Bing.com/maps. The ideal solution would be for UPMC to give up a bit of that parking lot, and a ramp up to the trail could be built underneath the tracks. Sadly, this would cost a ton of money. But if there is a wish list of projects somewhere I'd put this on it.

While I'm halucinating, it would also be nice if there was some kind of paved path (switchback?) built down from behind the Katz School and the Frick Fine Arts building to bypass Joncaire street. The sidwalk there can be crowded, the Belgian block is too steep to go down comfortably and there are too many cars roaring up it in the afternoon for safety.

xjoex, those aren't bike lanes just yet.

Stick one of these at the bottom of Greenfield Ave (yes, this exists in the US).

*scratches head* ... um, what does this mean? Where is this located with respect to automotive traffic? Do car drivers see this, and if they do, must they remain stopped?

Sorry, but to the uninitiated, this might add to the confusion more than help.

Different thought: I wonder how much trouble it would be to obtain a legal grade crossing, bikes/peds only, at that spot between the parking lot and Saline Street. The RR might be more willing to allow that than a full auto crossing. I wonder if it's ever been done.

Typically bike signals are immediately next to normal traffic signals (on the same post). This one I photographed was exiting a bike trail into a 3 way intersection, so there was no accompanying car traffic signal. Bikes have their own light cycle where all car traffic remains stopped and bikes are allowed to go. If the bike light is red, bikes are not allowed to go. It is pretty clear if you are sitting there. It would be no different from the protected 4-way pedestrian crossing at Forbes and Murray, but instead of pedestrians, it would be bikes.

The ones I've seen have a push to activate button located right next to the street. You simply pull up next to the curb (but not on the sidewalk) at the intersection and press the button to initiate your light cycle.

I guess it was more a joke than anything. While really cool, I doubt this would fly in Pittsburgh. People don't even stop for the lights we have now.

I hate the "push to activate" buttons for pedestrians enough as it is. Why should I have to always wait at an intersection, when the motorists have a 50% chance of seeing the light green when they arrive? Unless the motorists have a push-to-activate button, it's discriminatory to peds and cyclists to penalize them.

Also, the problem with push-buttons for cyclists is that if you have to pull to the right to push it, that leaves you right up next to the curb and you get squeezed between the curb and motorists who arrive and pull up on your left. If ALL motion through the intersection is halted for the bike green, that's one thing. But if any motion by autos is permitted during the bike green, there are potential conflicts -- which would be mitigated if you were out in the lane at the intersection.

I've lived in a city with push buttons at almost every stop light, I personally, never felt inconvenienced by them. I feel a lot more inconvenienced here, trying to make it through an intersection and not having the left turning cars yield before the light turns red, because hey, they're bigger than I am, why should they stop? The push to activate button doesn't seem like a huge price to pay not to be run down by a car, call me crazy. Many intersections have sensors in the road for cars, almost the exact same thing as a push to activate button. I don't think it is at all discriminatory if a traffic analysis indicates there is not enough pedestrian/bike traffic to justify a default light cycle (like downtown/oakland).

For dedicated bike signals, all auto traffic is halted. Yes, you have to move over to the right to push the button, but if there is a painted bike lane there, that shouldn't be a huge issue for a properly planned intersection. For left turns, there is often a second bike push button put in the center concrete median to the left of the traffic lane.

It really works quite well when it is done well (but I agree, it would be kind of lame if someone half assed it). I just imagined it would be a nice solution for a dangerous intersection with heavy bike traffic. Again I should reiterate, it was just a dream.

I looked at Greenfeild/2nd Ave this weekend.

Both 2nd ave and teh underpass are 3 lanes there. They don't really need to be more than two. If they added a WHOLE LANE to the bike path and 2nd ave and under the bipass, it would be luxurious and safe, with proper markeing -even if you had random racers in each direction.

There might be an issue when it comes down the street from the trail to 2nd Ave (Swinburn St), but that could be straightened out pretty quick by narrowing Swinburn street by by about 2 feet and maybe smoothing the trail with a yard or two of concrete.

I think "Push to activate" lights are wonderful IF the buttons are placed right and the signal actuall gets activated when pushed , as opposed to "push, wait an entire light cycle, and then you might get activated." Forbes and Murray works fine for me, because there is enough ped traffic that it gets activated and a biker has a good chance of hitting it on walk (must go slowly to avoid actually hitting peds, though).

Mick