BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

nice article

Yes, interesting article. Unfortunately it amounts to explaining why people who have already made up their minds will not change their minds.

Eh, it's fair to say that it amounts to explaining why people who've made up their minds won't change their minds EASILY.

Since the thirties, it's been the ideal that we abandon our bikes the second we can afford a car. Thinking on the bright side, back when we were really afraid of communism, giving up your car was completely UnAmerican (perception-wise).

Think about the movie Breaking Away. Much of the humor in that film is from the father's absolute horror of the foreign-ness of cycling (OK some of it may have had something to do with his son shaving his legs and singing opera but it was all tied up in his infatuation with the bike/Italy.)

Minds will change. But not fast enough to make your commute any safer.

I honestly think scofflaw cyclists play a very small role in drivers hating cyclists. They are just the reason given. Drivers who hate cyclists hate us because we slow them down, or take risks that might cause an accident. We do that when we take a lane or ride on the right of a busy street with narrow lanes. Both of these things are legal, but inconvenience and anger drivers. Running a stop sign or riding the wrong way up a one way street is just the thing they remember to trot out when they claim cycling should be banned from busy streets (along with us not paying for gas or registration).

In my dream world, I think there is a sub-conscious feeling of resentment because we stay in shape, never pay for parking, have more fun commuting, and sometime move faster in traffic than they do. They can't recognize or admit this, but like I said, in my dream world that's the problem the drivers have.

Don't all of you feel that way when you have to drive that day and see a smiling cyclist?

If you've honestly never seen a fat, out-of-shape cyclist...

I liked the Slate article and all its snarkiness. It made me think of this much more in depth and eloquent article by Tom Vanderbilt.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/city-biking/Rage-Against-Your-Machine.html

After reading some of the many comments on the article I was actually surprised were not too negative.

I do think it odd that people assume that people that ride bikes are liberals, not that political affiliation should matter here, but I consider myself conservative but I bike several days a week for transportation. Am I that much a minority?

@zjc2a, there is an assumption about bicyclists but I don't think it's a straightforward "bike=blue" bias. (shorthand: b=b:

I had an email from a friend along the same lines the other day. He assumed that most bicyclists aligned with his own perspective.

I think people assume that bicyclists are thoughtful. Then they compound the comedy of error by asserting that thoughtful people must, of course, see the world in the same way they do.

It's flattering in a way. Everybody sees us as naturally being on their team. Shhhhh.

Everybody sees us as naturally being on their team.

unfortunately, i think the opposite of this is true, and is also the reason why "motorists" hate "cyclists".

i won't comment on the b=b:B thing, but it does seem to me that most people assume bicyclists tend to be liberal. universities and cities tend to be liberal, and that's where bikes are most likely to be used by the masses, so, sure.

what i meant to comment on, though, was why bicyclists are annoying, as the article puts it. i think it is simply this: we are different. we don't belong. each of us can think of and provide reasons why we belong, but we're still, to most people, a tiny minority. the only thing that is really going to make a difference (and i do believe i will still be commuting when this happens around here) is that there are enough of us out there that we're just the same as anything else people encounter on their commute. then i will be just another thing slowing someone down who's late for work, rather than something that shouldn't even be there and must be passed at any cost.

HV, you make a good point about bikes becoming an expected part of one's commute. Another change will come when people realize that cyclists are actually going somewhere, not just pedaling in circles because they feel like it.

I think that's why we see so many letters to the editor saying bikes should be allowed only on trails, or only on side streets. It doesn't always dawn on people that cyclists, like drivers, use the roads that lead to their destination.

@Mary What is wrong with pedaling in circles? As a car driver I can assure that a lot of people do it in cars -- going for pleasure somewhere and not out of necessity.

Cyclists are all liberals! With big windbreakers.

Car drivers drive in circles all the time. It's called looking for a parking space. Something cyclists generally don't have to bother with.

I wish I could (in a hurry) find the citation for the claim that 15% of urban traffic is just cars looking for parking. Or maybe it was 40%.

Stu, I remember the 15% thing and IIRC it was in relation to a smartphone app developed by CMU to locate available parking in downtown garages.

It's my perception that the rightmost Randian extremists believe in their hearts that if you are not driving the biggest SUV and consuming the most stuff possible, i.e. not living by the law of the jungle, you are some kind of bleeding heart tree hugger. Thus cyclists become associated with liberals by comparison. Those people are not conservatives, they are nutjobs.

@edmonds59 Those people are not conservatives, they are nutjobs.

That is true of many (most?) self-described "conservatives".

True of Coulter, O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, Limbaugh, the Koch Bros. and many others.

Including some running for national office.

"I was a Republican until they lost their minds." -Charles Barkley

Motorists want to believe that driving a car is the only rational choice. That it is in fact not a choice at all, but something that everyone has to do, and there is no alternative. That's why they're so eager to be in front of bicycles, even when getting there is extremely risky and they don't gain anything from it. That's why they latch on to any argument, no matter how irrational, that bicycles should not be allowed in the street. For drivers, there must be no other way.

Don't forget there are conservative Democrats, too. But in any case I don't think it's a conservative/liberal difference that governs whether people drive SUVs or not, I think it's more a sense of safety and entitlement. Which could drive a conservative mindset, but maybe not. If you think you really need a SUV to be protected while driving, and can afford it, you might well buy one. Riding a bike incurs a fair amount of risk, which not everyone is comfortable with.

Edit: not to tack too much on the backs of the brave African-Americans who led in the civil rights era, but bicyclists are very much an oppressed class much like African-Americans were in the South. We are treated as second-class citizens and actually killed by the indifference and disregard of others. We act much like the oppressed did prior to the civil rights era, thinking that if we just obey the laws a little better, they won't be too hard on us, and run us over. We should stand up and demand our rights, and stop acting like it's the best thing in the world when someone paints a line down a street for us.

Note: TV pushes the idea that SUVs are safe, giving the impression they are safer than cars. They aren't.

We're getting at the heart of what I intend to do with my life. I've been saying out loud for close-on two decades that I am trying to make it possible for Americans to go about life without using a car. That has meant making transit easier to figure out, and making cycling more accepted, safer to practice, and more comfortable in non-ideal conditions. Everything I say and do is in pursuit of that goal.

If we are annoying, it's only because we finally have people's attention, and they can't NOT think about us.

Gandhi: "First they ignore us. Then they laugh at us. Then they fight us. Then we win."

Skepchick responds... with science.

I cannot even begin to tell you the number of drivers who have screamed at me, “GET ON THE SIDEWALK!” Because of the nature of these interactions, I’m never able to patiently explain the laws of the road to the person driving the 2-ton death machine, so instead I just decide to confuse them by shouting back, “NO, YOU GET ON THE SIDEWALK!”

i have done this. i'm not sure what effect it has on the shouter, but it makes me feel better.

^actually LOLed.

i still regret not having a comeback ready to go when some really, really angry dude on baum screamed "you're not a car" at me a few weeks ago. gotta file these ideas away.

I often yell something to the effect of "ONE of us shouldn't be on the road!"

i still regret not having a comeback ready to go when some really, really angry dude on baum screamed "you're not a car" at me a few weeks ago. gotta file these ideas away.

i had an older woman say that out the window on a sunday afternoon while crossing the 18th street bridge. i cheerily yelled "thanks! i know!" and waved. dunno if she knew how happy i was to not be a car, but i tried to make it known.

I always yell "I love you!!!" I know it works because someone in another car yelled it at me when I cut them off in a fit of childish impatience and anger after a horrible day and painful commute. I couldn't say a word!! Then I laughed when I realized that they had crushed me!!!

I love the Skepchick analysis. Thx.

So, just to be contrary, I did have an occasion last year to wish that I had yelled "HEY! WHY DON'T YOU JUST GET ON THE (DAMN) SIDEWALK WHERE YOU BELONG!", and I wasn't even driving. Sadly, it took too long for me to formulate this comeback; I was trying hard to reach for the nastiest thing you could say to a biker. By then they were too far away...

Anyway.

It was morning, on the way to work (Forbes, in Oakland). I had just alighted from a bus and, looking both ways, saw no cars. I crossed. Behind me were a couple with a babe in arms. They hesitated, then started to cross. Just then a trio of cyclists appear. The couple hesitates at the center line, not knowing whether to back-track or forge ahead. They're obviously in a bad place and unsure what to do. (And I feel bad for being a wrong example.)

Then the lead cyclist yells out: "NEXT TIME use the crosswalk!"

This was indescribably rude, particularly given the circumstances (a family with infant) and the ease with which the cyclists could have dealt with the situation (slow down, move towards the curb, whatever). Total asshole. Not to mention his companions. Even a car would have done the right thing, I think.

It was one of those moments when I really felt ashamed of being a biker.

[Note: If you recognize yourself, speak up. Explain what you were thinking. Don't worry, I can do flame-war.]

I don't think your observation is contrary at all, it's pertinent.

One of my co-workers, a good reasonable fellow, told me about walking across a crosswalk in Squirrel Hill, with the light, with his wife and 2 children of 5 and 7, and having a cyclist, who was running a red light, yell "watch out!" at them. What the f am I supposed to do with that? The old "thereareassholesineverything" defense is piss weak in that kind of situation. Shameful indeed. Shameful that any cyclist, hyper-aware that we are of our own vulnerability in traffic, would then behave exactly the same toward the next most vulnerable user group. Pedestrians are at the peak of the right-of-way hierarchy, regardless of the general stupidity of people.

Humans suck.

Problem per Skepchick:

They may very well have witnessed a cyclist following the law, but they don’t know it because as non-cycling drivers, they feel entitled to the road. Consider that you (or at least I) don’t hear drivers complain about pedestrians breaking the law nearly as often, despite the fact that pedestrians jaywalk all the damned time. Nearly all drivers are also pedestrians, so they are more likely to relate to them and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Solution:

Before someone could receive a driver license (s)he should pass through biking school so this someone could relate to bicyclists. BikePGH should in charge of this.

The other day, I watched two cyclists almost run into each other dodging pedestrians in the scramble at Forbes and Craig. It was all I could do not to bust out laughing at them.

@buffalo buffalo It was all I could do not to bust out laughing at them.

There are times when pointing and laughing is the appropriate response.

... the scramble at Forbes and Craig...

If they were treating the traffic light at Forbes and Craig in Idaho fashion, they would have had to come to a complete stop first. Pedestrians or not, it's hard to see how anyone would have had a problem if they'd been following the [relaxed Idaho] rules.

They were both riding in the street (one outbound on Forbes, one southbound on Craig), but decided to join the pedestrian traffic during the all-way crossing signal. The outbound-Forbes rider worked their way to NB Craig; the southbound-Craig rider worked their way I believe to the Museum sidewalk. But first they almost ran into a couple pedestrians and each other.